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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: rainman2 on August 01, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
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worst driving colonies past and present?
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worst driving colonies past and present?
Any that included Ledford.
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Growing up racing in New England early 80s. New England always a cradle of drivers and there were some very tough colonies at Rockingham and Foxboro in those days Ready? John Hogan, Bert Beckwith, Bruce Ranger, Billy Parker Jr, Robert Tisbert, Ernie Houle, John Marshall, Ted Wing, Gary Kamal, David Pinkney Jr., Mark Lancaster, Donald Guidette ( excellent trainer/driver with trotters ), Jim Winters, Bill Faucher and then guys like Steve O'toole, Bobby Naginiewicz, Bobby Cross, Richard Kent, Wendell Donaway who could win with anything at any time.
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mohawk click
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I think all in all the colony at The Meadows is a good group.
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Any that included Ledford.
hmm.
Ledford
Morgan
Magee
Andy Miller
Tim Tetrick
Oosting
Hiteman
Yep. Terrible drivers with an average of more than 8-10k in wins. That's just Illinois, circa 20 years ago. Doesn't even account for OH, IN, or the races win vs top tier drivers at the Big M.
Gotta call nonsense on this 1.
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hmm.
Ledford
Morgan
Magee
Andy Miller
Tim Tetrick
Oosting
Hiteman
Yep. Terrible drivers with an average of more than 8-10k in wins. That's just Illinois, circa 20 years ago. Doesn't even account for OH, IN, or the races win vs top tier drivers at the Big M.
Gotta call nonsense on this 1.
Where’s Joe Anderson ?
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Where’s Joe Anderson ?
not sure how much overlap in Chicago harness driving years there were with Ledford and little Joe. I'll have to pull some old programs and see. I'd guess RJ and Eric squared off more than JA/EL
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In the day there was a decent old school colony at Rosecroft.
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I think all in all the colony at The Meadows is a good group.
I agree with the Meadows, but we all know the Big M has the best group when they all race there. Woodbine is right behind them
For the second tier tracks, Meadows and Pocono for me.
Meadows:
Palone
Wilder
Merriman
Wrenn Jr
Myers
Brown
Indof
Monti
Add a 9th person (Zendt, etc...)
Pocono
Napolitano Jr
ANAP
Panteleano
Boyd
Buter
Warren
Allard
M. Miller
Marohn Jr
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'05 Big M
..not bad
SEARS
PIERCE
D MILLER
BRENNAN
MANZI
..w/ campbell, a miller, ouelette forays..
young gingras incoming
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Growing up racing in New England early 80s. New England always a cradle of drivers and there were some very tough colonies at Rockingham and Foxboro in those days Ready? John Hogan, Bert Beckwith, Bruce Ranger, Billy Parker Jr, Robert Tisbert, Ernie Houle, John Marshall, Ted Wing, Gary Kamal, David Pinkney Jr., Mark Lancaster, Donald Guidette ( excellent trainer/driver with trotters ), Jim Winters, Bill Faucher and then guys like Steve O'toole, Bobby Naginiewicz, Bobby Cross, Richard Kent, Wendell Donaway who could win with anything at any time.
You left out horrible Hubie Barker and Harold Crooked Story who always heard the Harold, Harold catcalls from the grandstand when he stiffed a drive.
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Cant argue with that
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I agree with the Meadows, but we all know the Big M has the best group when they all race there. Woodbine is right behind them
For the second tier tracks, Meadows and Pocono for me.
Meadows:
Palone
Wilder
Merriman
Wrenn Jr
Myers
Brown
Indof
Monti
Add a 9th person (Zendt, etc...)
Pocono
Napolitano Jr
ANAP
Panteleano
Boyd
Buter
Warren
Allard
M. Miller
Marohn Jr
What drivers are 'A' drivers at Woodbine outside of the young ens---Roy, Mcnair and what is the average age too?
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I agree with the Meadows, but we all know the Big M has the best group when they all race there. Woodbine is right behind them
For the second tier tracks, Meadows and Pocono for me.
Meadows:
Palone
Wilder
Merriman
Wrenn Jr
Myers
Brown
Indof
Monti
Add a 9th person (Zendt, etc...)
Pocono
Napolitano Jr
ANAP
Panteleano
Boyd
Buter
Warren
Allard
M. Miller
Marohn Jr
After G Nap and A Nap the others at Pocono suck.
If the guys from Yonkers/Roosevelt were still around those guys would never get a win.
Carmine Abbatiello
Buddy Gilmour
Herve & Henri Filion
Joe Marsh Jr
Butch Dokey
Mike LaChance
Lucien Fontaine
Rejean Daigneault
Norman Dauplaise
Del Insko
These guys were the best of the best.
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John Patterson jr Donald Dancer Luc Ouellette all did well vs that crew too and of course, John Chapman
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and Jimmy Marohn
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Freehold 70s and 80s had a horrible crew. Sure Herve and Catman showed up to gamble and fix races, but cmon Billy Bresnahan was leading driver, so that tells you everything
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Saratoga harness late 70s / early 80s fair to midlin at best JP Morel leading driver Percy davis - excellent horseman, then you had Frank Coppolla, Bert Belanger, Dave Gagner, Dan Wilsey, Perry Simser. I am aware Bill O'donnell launched from there Not to forget good ole Harold Story
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I agree. That Yonkers group was pretty amazing. Even some of the second tier drivers at YR /RR in those days weren’t bad. Andy Santeramo won a bunch of races in NY during those days. Then there were George Sholty, Frank Tagliaro, Billy Myers, Billy Hudson, Randy Perry, John Chapman and Ben Webster. As far as the worst driving colony Monticello Raceway was pretty bad with a few exceptions. I do recall hitting a big ticket at MR in the 70’s when NHL goalie Gilles Villimure somehow won from post 9 during the off season. By the way the YR/RR tracks had the best race callers too. Bullet Bob Myers and Jack E. Lee. Much better than the so called “Voice” at the Meadows.
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My family raced a horse named Sublime at MR around 1979. Anyway he had the 8 hole and Bobby Pettito was driving. Going down the backstretch the horse on the lead fell suddenly and caused a horrific pile up and our horse was literally the only one standing. Obviously he won the race and we got the entire purse. Maybe 1200 back then. Of course, wagering money was refunded EXCEPT for the few fools who bet on him. WPS on our horse was cashed, believe it or not. Everything else refunded. It was shown that night on the PIX news in NYC with Sal Marciano Good ole Bobby Pettito lolol
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Wasn’t Bobby Petito the driver who wore extremely thick glasses because he could barely see?
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You may be right for some reason I cant recall that for sure small guy mustache pleasant always smiling light blue and red colors
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how about the Scioto Crew.
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The Pompano Park crew! Bruce Ranger, Wally Hennessey, Kevin Wallis, Peter Wrenn, Joe Pavia Jr., Mickey McNichol, Tom Sells (RIP), et al. Don't forget 'bling bling' Andy Santeramo, et al and I'm sure I missed a few other infamous drivers. Please add on to the list and any stories!
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Yonkers now, half mile Jason Bartlett sensational, Jordan s , Brennan, Holland, kakaley. ..sensational half mile drivers
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Roosevelt 80s. Carmine, Gilmour, John Patterson trotters, popfingers, 100k briefcase man Mike lachance....easil y roosevelt 80s. Now yonkers
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Yonkers now, half mile Jason Bartlett sensational, Jordan s , Brennan, Holland, kakaley. ..sensational half mile drivers
Your joking right? Other than Brennan not one of these guys could survive at the Meadowlands. George Brennan is a driver. The rest are gunners and have zero strategy or talent. You could put any 140pd knucklehead up behind Bartlett horses and get same result. Hand them the lines / yell at them and kick them every now and again. You know why they call him Bingo at the Meadowlands? OOOOOOO - 57
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Your joking right? Other than Brennan not one of these guys could survive at the Meadowlands. George Brennan is a driver. The rest are gunners and have zero strategy or talent. You could put any 140pd knucklehead up behind Bartlett horses and get same result. Hand them the lines / yell at them and kick them every now and again. You know why they call him Bingo at the Meadowlands? OOOOOOO - 57
I agree with you 100% Almost the same words I was going to say! As for Jason Bartlett, I think he is one of the most overrated drivers in the sport. To me he is basically the YR version of Bruce Aldrich jr.
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I said half Mile drivers....
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After G Nap and A Nap the others at Pocono suck.
If the guys from Yonkers/Roosevelt were still around those guys would never get a win.
Carmine Abbatiello
Buddy Gilmour
Herve & Henri Filion
Joe Marsh Jr
Butch Dokey
Mike LaChance
Lucien Fontaine
Rejean Daigneault
Norman Dauplaise
Del Insko
These guys were the best of the best.
First off, you are mentioning names of the past. That's not my focus.
My focus is look at a driving colony from top to bottom.
If you noticed, I did not include Harrah's cause you have guys from the Big M, Pocono, etc.. doing multiple tracks.
I was thinking about including a track like Scioto, but you have overlap there too.
Braxten Boyd doe not suck my friend. Very much an up and coming driver. He will be at the Big M regularly within 3-5 years and on stakes horses too by the age of 30.
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how about the Scioto Crew.
I agree with that. I was tempted to include that one in my post, but with Merriman, Wrenn Jr there and at the Meadows, I chose the Meadows but I can buy into that too.
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Your joking right? Other than Brennan not one of these guys could survive at the Meadowlands. George Brennan is a driver. The rest are gunners and have zero strategy or talent. You could put any 140pd knucklehead up behind Bartlett horses and get same result. Hand them the lines / yell at them and kick them every now and again. You know why they call him Bingo at the Meadowlands? OOOOOOO - 57
Jordan Stratton could survive at the Big M. I do agree that no one else besides Brennan and Stratton could though.
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Jordan Stratton could survive at the Big M. I do agree that no one else besides Brennan and Stratton could though.
Ahh Sears perhaps?
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Dunn, Tetrick, DMiller, Gingras.
The rest are all tied for 5rh.
JMVHMFO
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I believe that Dave Miller and Tim Tetrick are the most "complete" drivers. Dexter Dunn is the most aggressive at the highest levels, but still makes mistakes and Yannick is also aggressive, but has more finesse. When Yannick is on his game, he is devastatingly good.
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You left out Jim Tallman.
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Yes, died tragically ypung
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First off, you are mentioning names of the past. That's not my focus.
My focus is look at a driving colony from top to bottom.
If you noticed, I did not include Harrah's cause you have guys from the Big M, Pocono, etc.. doing multiple tracks.
I was thinking about including a track like Scioto, but you have overlap there too.
Braxten Boyd doe not suck my friend. Very much an up and coming driver. He will be at the Big M regularly within 3-5 years and on stakes horses too by the age of 30.
In harness racing today, Braxton Boyd and Joe Chindano Jr. are not afraid to drive horses compared to many other drivers. Are they good drivers? It depends on what you consider a good driver is. A part of this answer depends on how much money you invest in them. Are they up and coming? Yes. Look at the tracks these individuals are applying their trade at.
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You left out Jim Tallman.
fun guy
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stillings
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The Meadows years ago not now. Take away Palone and Wilder who ya got, Merriman and Wrenn, the who?
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The Meadows years ago not now. Take away Palone and Wilder who ya got, Merriman and Wrenn, the who?
Dick Stillings was a class act.
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I believe that Dave Miller and Tim Tetrick are the most "complete" drivers. Dexter Dunn is the most aggressive at the highest levels, but still makes mistakes and Yannick is also aggressive, but has more finesse. When Yannick is on his game, he is devastatingly good.
Yannick has driven the best of the 'Burke Brigade' for years. Over time with this, you should learn finesse in driving horses. At least Yannick has learned how to drive horses unlike some of the younger guys who just send them off the car down the road. Some of these guys are driving for the best trainers too!
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Dicky, Buddy and crew great barn, fun, throw in Duke and Patsy, always a beer to be had.
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Yannick has driven the best of the 'Burke Brigade' for years. Over time with this, you should learn finesse in driving horses. At least Yannick has learned how to drive horses unlike some of the younger guys who just send them off the car down the road. Some of these guys are driving for the best trainers too!
Pretty much my sentiments tmbz1
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If you take Yannick numbers minus Burke & Takter and you will find he's extremely over rated and subpar driver. If USTA did stats like the NFL or NBA we could easily see that without those two trainers he bats .200 for others.....
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The horse is a majority of the equation. Walter case, Merriman, Bartlett,...majority winners were better horses. So to say eliminate trainers and they are subpar..you have eliminated the majority of the equation to ein.
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You left out Jim Tallman.
Great call on Tallman Sam. Same for Dick Stillings, that's for sure. tmbz1 tmbz1 tmbz1
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If you take Yannick numbers minus Burke & Takter and you will find he's extremely over rated and subpar driver. If USTA did stats like the NFL or NBA we could easily see that without those two trainers he bats .200 for others.....
Can the USTA do this? How much would they charge and I'm sure you can expand this to any other driver/trainer combinations too past and present!!
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Met Tallman at Vernon good driver good person. Story Carmine Campbell Morrill JR Pierce could drive at any track with the best of them.
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Met Tallman at Vernon good driver good person. Story Carmine Campbell Morrill JR Pierce could drive at any track with the best of them.
Finally! Someone other than me mentioned Jim Morrill jr. Fantastic driver - absolutely can go with any of them - extremely underated - he is much more than batavia and Buffalo guy as his grand circuit success and staggering lifetime udrs attest to My all time favorite harness driver
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Morrill always the #1 driver on WNY. circuit. Can hang with any of the top 10
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He's done good any where he's been. Good horseman, Has a great gig where he is. He also stays out of trouble there. Unlike the Freehold days.
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topsham fair best
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Hey Fuguzzi agree with you 100 percent.
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Thanks, buddy Us old timers know best - wink, wink
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I think Jim M needed to go home to western NY because in the mid-2000’s he was out of control. I am not saying it was drugs or alcohol although it could have been. One night our horse was 10-1 ML in a NW 10,000 L6 at the Big M. He told me he would see us in the winner’s circle even though we weren’t as confident. He gets bet down to 2-1 and proceeds to tie up during the race fading to last. He came off the track screaming to never put his name down to drive our horses again. Obviously he told his friends to bet us and I guess he was embarrassed or lost a bundle himself. I was later told this was a regular occurrence. Did he have a gambling problem? I don’t know but shortly thereafter we saw him less and less.
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I don't know what to make of your story. Only bad thing I knew about Morrill was that he did have a period where he had problems with coke. tremendous driver whose numbers speak for themselves.
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Only 2 drivers in history have had single season UDRs over .500 after the USTA upped the minimum number of drives to 500= to be considered - Walter Case Jr and Jim Morrill Jr
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There is no doubt that Jim M. is a fabulous talent. He used to own the NY Sire Stakes program and was big time at the Big M. However something happened that basically moved him to Buffalo and Batavia. It certainly wasn’t the money or the weather.
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Morril had( has) amazing talent. He drove all the top horses in all the big races when Bill Robinson was dominating the sport years ago. Why the reduced schedule now, I don't know. I heard his wife was from the northern NY area and they started a family.
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Scioto here and NoW!
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Wife from there, needed to get the family out of NJ, kids.
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Ahh Sears perhaps?
Did they resurrect Sears from the dead! Check his outings at Saratoga last night in NYSS and Excelsior!
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Did they resurrect Sears from the dead! Check his outings at Saratoga last night in NYSS and Excelsior!
Back in the day. Sears is mort. Or Brain dead. Too much blow.