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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Fuguzzi on September 05, 2023, 01:53:24 PM
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Chronological order only -
NIATROSS
NIHILATOR
ARTSPLACE
SOMEBEACHSOMEWHER E
CONFEDERATE
Honorable mention - Cams Card Shark Special honor to Life Sign if only for his Jug final alone - the greates performance in history by a 3 yr old on a half.
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Great list but I don't think Artsplace had a great 3yr old year.
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I kind of get you
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Great list but I don't think Artsplace had a great 3yr old year.
& he has him as a top5 three year old pacer?
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I think you are confused about Artsplace being one of the best 3 yr olds. That year Artsplace was plagued by injuries and although he performed well Precious Bunny also a 3 yr old was voted horse of the year.
On the other hand Artsplace 4 yr old year was special. "Fully healthy, Artsplace had arguably the greatest season in harness racing history, going undefeated and winning such races as the Breeders Crown, US Pacing Championship, and American National, among many others."
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How do you not put Life Sign above Confederate, LS raced and slayed the Robinson trio . Then what about Precious Bunnies 3 yr old year.
Let’s let the rest of the year play out and see how Confederate does with no rabbit stable mates.
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How do you not put Life Sign above Confederate, LS raced and slayed the Robinson trio . Then what about Precious Bunnies 3 yr old year.
Let’s let the rest of the year play out and see how Confederate does with no rabbit stable mates.
LIFE SIGN was a force to be reconned with.
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They were all great in there time better harness and bikes today hard to compare then and why should we they were all great at one time and will never be forgotten .
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Life Sign pulled a Cheetah, arguably the best bike since single shaft, but so did ever 3 yr that yr
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I knew people would have problems with Artsplace because of a spotty 3 year old campaign.
As for Confederate instantly cracking the top 5 - he deserves it once he establishes himself as the fastest 3 year old ever.
Life Sign - you certainly dont have to sell me on him. I was ta the LBJ in 93 - very fortunate because it's the only pone I have ever been to. His win there, IMO, remains the greatest performance ever by a 3 year olfd on a half mile track. His win defied logic.
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Great list all well deserving, but since it's based strictly on their 3 yr. old season Ralph Hanover needs to be added.
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Great list all well deserving, but since it's based strictly on their 3 yr. old season Ralph Hanover needs to be added.
You are a good poster. Ralph was a triple Crown winner, the worst ever. Nice little horse, yeah. The horses on my list and many not on it would spin his bridle around. Awful sire as a side note. they were all lame behind - hips, stifles, back......
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MOST HAPPY FELLA
STORM DANAGE
TYLER B
JUST A FEW TO BE CONSIDERED GREAT 3 YEAR OLDS BACK WHEN HARNESS RACING WASNT ANYTHING LIKE IT IS TODAY.
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You are a good poster. Ralph was a triple Crown winner, the worst ever. Nice little horse, yeah. The horses on my list and many not on it would spin his bridle around. Awful sire as a side note. they were all lame behind - hips, stifles, back......
Correct on all accounts. You forgot hocks -- I had one that needed to be injected every other week.
That being said he did win the triple crown on all size tracks. A horse can't dictate how tough his competition will be. One of the most dominant 3yr olds ever. Triple crown, Adios, Messenger, and a world record at Blue Bonnets. 20? wins I believe -- you probably won't see that again. And yes he was an awful sire. I guess Meadow Skipper used all his siring son juice on Most Happy Fella and Albatross -- thank God.
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You could also add the Hall Of Fame filly Silk Stockings. Pacer of the year as a 3yr old she beat the boys in the Monticello-OTB Classic, the $300,000 richest horse race at the time. And just missed being nominated horse of the year.
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MOST HAPPY FELLA
STORM DANAGE
TYLER B
JUST A FEW TO BE CONSIDERED GREAT 3 YEAR OLDS BACK WHEN HARNESS RACING WASNT ANYTHING LIKE IT IS TODAY.
Look, we can name endless nice classy, solid, very good near great 3 year olds for every year for our lifetimes. i am talking the ultra greats, the super specials, the immortals. Each of the horses i mentioned and many I didn't, like OTRA, Matt's Scooter, Beach Towel, Precious Bunny, Hot Lead, Cam Fella, Jate Lobell, Abercrombie and on and on would absolutely blow the doors off the 3 you mentioned. My list is my way of ranking the very best that ever lived The very best. Sorry, Dan Patch. I can quite makes sense of you - free legged, virtually undefeated and 1.55 over a century ago. Dan patch - the greatest Standardbred that ever lived.
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im sorry artsplace was at best the 3rd best 3yr in that season.you lose all credibility with that
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as for life sign you can argue he was he was 1st,2nd.or 3rd best 3yr old.
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CONFEDERATE does not belong on that list - yet. Maybe if he keeps performing.
Confederate instantly joins list by being the fastest 3 year old who ever lived and 3rd fastest pacer in a race period.
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Life Sign's Jug final is the greatest performance by a 3 year old on a half mile,it defies explanation
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I know I stretched things a bit given Artsplace's issues at 3, but he still ranks among the top half dozen pacers to ever look thru a bridle.
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including Artsplace blows my credibility ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 oook been around the game long?
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You could also add the Hall Of Fame filly Silk Stockings. Pacer of the year as a 3yr old she beat the boys in the Monticello-OTB Classic, the $300,000 richest horse race at the time. And just missed being nominated horse of the year.
Go over to the nostalgia forum and look at the topic about Silky and Tarport Hap and five races I posted including the one you mentioned. Although not in that one Tarport Hap wiped the floor with Silky most of the times they met and she won US Pacing Championship at 4 and the Sportsman's Grand Prix beating boys.
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Top 3 yr olds.Olds. maybe we we can include Albatross...and triple cown winners....cams card shark. Or Ralph hanover... or Matt scotter .j I st to name a few.....or how about pandrosa....list can be any of many
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Go over to the nostalgia forum and look at the topic about Silky and Tarport Hap and five races I posted including the one you mentioned. Although not in that one Tarport Hap wiped the floor with Silky most of the times they met and she won US Pacing Championship at 4 and the Sportsman's Grand Prix beating boys.
Correct. Silk Stockings had quarter cracks at four. I was a groom at Monticello when she won the classic. Hap like SS was also a first crop Most Happy Fella -- she had a heart attack at the Meadowlands going to the half when Ben Webster pulled her up. She fell and died on the track. Webster later said he believes she had the heart attack at the start but she was so dead game she kept pacing till she dropped. I remember everyone was stunned. I believe they buried her in the infield -- not sure.
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Yeah lotta fun seeing her beat the likes of Shirley's Beau. I get it. She was a great filly for her time. Wanna race against Somebeachsomewher e or Nihilator? Really? not gonna go 15 rounds with all the naysyaers. i made a list. I stand by and yes Confederate is already an immortal.
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do we really know how good Tall Dark Stranger really was. I mean he was pretty dominant. 2 losses that year, arguably can be top 5
captain treacherous was money his 3yo season
both horses not winning by huge margins but always dug in, TDS did get beat by that ridiculous 100-1 shot who was racing as wide as the grandstand
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A fast time that was intentionally set up by his stablemate in a sire stakes means nothing. He beat nobody. When he races like this for a bunch more races, then he might be considered. Let's see him win and set records on a half mile track. Let's see him win heats. SBSW did both. Right now Confederate is not even in the conversation with Tall Dark Stranger. Confederate is the best three year old pacer this year now but the season is not over.
Tall Dark Stranger - 22 starts, 19 wins / $2,000,000 exactly where Confederate will be when he finishes this year
Everyone knew that Mondays race was going to be an elaborate Time Trial, so why is everyone shocked and dismayed
His performance, while only in high gear for about the 3/8ths maybe, Timmy silent, earplugs in still matters and it always will.
He will finish the season as the fastest 3 year old ever.
We all know this horse has that seldom seen gear that would make him pace deep stretch with anything that ever lived.
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Confederate would be undefeated in races that mattered if Timmy would have not screwed up a few times. The horse only lost 1 race in my opinion and I could argue the driver messed that race up as well, it was his 2 year old debut at Hoosier Park where he came home in 25 and change that night. Should have never lost the Breeders Crown at 2 or the North America Cup this year, those were all on Timmy, he would tell you the same. So in reality the colt should have never lost a race if he was handled more aggressively in those few losses. With that said if he truly wanted to put this debate to an end and be the greatest, he would go dominate the 3rd Thursday in Delaware Ohio, but he won't go most likely. You can't say he is not familiar with that 1/2 mile track since he trained there all summer last year. But at this point how many dollars can you add to the stud fee for winning the LBJ. I am sure he will steer clear of that race.
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Agree with all points and Timmy has said on many occasions how he fucked up. Every time I re-watch the NA Cup, I wanna reach into the screen and change things a bit. LOL. It kills me he lost that race. Unnecessary blemish on his resume.
There is nothing I wanna see more than him in the Jug, but alas he just isn;t gonna be there, I fear.
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correct, they will not risk his "legacy "on the 1/2 mile
and they can send cannibal
he will race at lexington and then breeders crown
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correct, they will not risk his "legacy "on the 1/2 mile
and they can send cannibal
he will race at lexington and then breeders crown
I see no other scenarios BJ. That's gonna be it. I will watch his races sitting in my rocker 20 years from now - I hope.
No lasix - no matter, Timmy working pretty bard, but not screaming - no matter, earplugs still in all year - no matter.
He is such a delight to behold!
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To me greatest of all time is measured by many things. Not just time.
If you had year to year stats --- not just who was the best 3yo of that year.... But who was the 2nd or 3rd best 3yo of that season. Compare those names and you can see maybe a more clearer picture of who the 'top' horse was racing against throughout the season.
getting somewhat off topic - but when I think back to the older horses, I always thought an underrated horse was Mister Big. The class of open company he faced - and with horses retiring after 3 more often - what a tremendous quality of horses. The races Always B Miki and Jiggles had ..... Even the quality of older times like Bret Hanover and when I see old program pages posted on Facebook and the depth of those fields.
Confederate is a tremendous horse I would love to see come back and race at 4 against open company. Will that happen ? But the mile he put up was on a lightning fast track - the pace was set by a stablemate, and he was able to tip and demonstrate that he is a tremendous horse.... But tremendous only because of time ?
I think the class you face - is just as important as the time you set.
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SBSW paced sub 1:50 doing heats on a half mile.
Needs no intro!! SBSW - best 3 year old pacer since at least 1990 - the new speed era.
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To me greatest of all time is measured by many things. Not just time.
If you had year to year stats --- not just who was the best 3yo of that year.... But who was the 2nd or 3rd best 3yo of that season. Compare those names and you can see maybe a more clearer picture of who the 'top' horse was racing against throughout the season.
getting somewhat off topic - but when I think back to the older horses, I always thought an underrated horse was Mister Big. The class of open company he faced - and with horses retiring after 3 more often - what a tremendous quality of horses. The races Always B Miki and Jiggles had ..... Even the quality of older times like Bret Hanover and when I see old program pages posted on Facebook and the depth of those fields.
Confederate is a tremendous horse I would love to see come back and race at 4 against open company. Will that happen ? But the mile he put up was on a lightning fast track - the pace was set by a stablemate, and he was able to tip and demonstrate that he is a tremendous horse.... But tremendous only because of time ?
I think the class you face - is just as important as the time you set.
Dinka doo = I am right with you bro. I HATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this obsession with time. And yes, the stacked fields of yesteryear at the aged top levels were the greatest spectacles in racing. Mares and trotters too. If allowed to continue, I believe Redwood Hanover from this crop can emerge as a top aged pacer
I am on board with class over time every day.
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Party Girl Hill was a better horse. She beat the boys, was the first sub 1:50 mile by a female pacer on a half, and won heats.
Would love to see Miss Easy race today -she could beat the boys and would pace in 47 and change no doubt! She and Sanibel Island best female pacers I ever saw
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Still waiting for the red ear plugs to be pulled.
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Life sign was defiantly better than artsplace at 3
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Life sign was defiantly better than artsplace at 3
Life Sign - greatest jug performance in history! Hands down. stellar stacked field too!
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How soon everyone forgets ABERCROMBIE
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Abercrombie goes down in history as the sire of Artsplace not by his racetrack performances which were good but not top five.
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Where's Cam Fella on that list. He was Horse of the Year in 1982 in U.S. and Canada.
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I get the whole Cam Fella thing. Main issues he beat absolutely nobody. But his almost unparalled win streak/s must be respected.
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Certainly top ten 3 year old all time. I was just compiling 5 absolute super horses.
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Abercrombie goes down in history as the sire of Artsplace not by his racetrack performances which were good but not top five.
I can always count on you to deflate any situation.
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Abercrombie a great sire, no doubt, great sire of mares too
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How do you not put Life Sign above Confederate, LS raced and slayed the Robinson trio . Then what about Precious Bunnies 3 yr old year.
Let’s let the rest of the year play out and see how Confederate does with no rabbit stable mates.
I think they will protect Confederate. Probably just 4, maybe 5 more races and the thoughts of going to the Jug ?? Blow your nose and get that craziness out of your head.
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Confederate instantly joins list by being the fastest 3 year old who ever lived and 3rd fastest pacer in a race period.
I respectfully disagree. I am not saying he is not good. He is very, very good; maybe even great. I just don't think he gets a pass into the top 5 ever by being the fastest off of that particular mile. To me, it holds about as much weight as a time trial. He has the rest of the year to cement that, IMO.
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I respectfully disagree. I am not saying he is not good. He is very, very good; maybe even great. I just don't think he gets a pass into the top 5 ever by being the fastest off of that particular mile. To me, it holds about as much weight as a time trial. He has the rest of the year to cement that, IMO.
It was essentially a TT we all knew it would be. But to do it so effortlessy, driver silent, earplugs in.. It deserves a special place. Fastest 3 year old ever and I believe he can go even a few ticks faster. 3rd fastest performance ever in a "race". It has to mean something. Like a guy getting 4000 hits. Automatic immortal.
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It was essentially a TT we all knew it would be. But to do it so effortlessy, driver silent, earplugs in.. It deserves a special place. Fastest 3 year old ever and I believe he can go even a few ticks faster. 3rd fastest performance ever in a "race". It has to mean something. Like a guy getting 4000 hits. Automatic immortal.
But there has always been a world’s fastest 3yo pacer, and a fair amount of them have since been more or less forgotten. He might go a bit faster. He’s been really well driven and managed, which is great. That said, he’s also not been roughed up much that I’ve seen. Maybe that hasn’t happened because he is that much better. I will just reserve judgment through the rest of the year.
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I respectfully disagree. I am not saying he is not good. He is very, very good; maybe even great. I just don't think he gets a pass into the top 5 ever by being the fastest off of that particular mile. To me, it holds about as much weight as a time trial. He has the rest of the year to cement that, IMO.
I’ll be first to admit he is a great horse when he done this year……. If !!!!! He goes to the jug, AND WINS !! And then finishes up with a win in the breeders..
I don’t want to read how great he is, I want to see it… race on Confederate.
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Unfortunately i dont see how the jug fits into his schedule I would love to see him go
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I think we have been seeing how great he is tmbz1
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Have we seen any other 3 year old thus far who comes close to what he he has shown us and who has maintained their form all year?
I can't think of any....
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Life Sign - greatest jug performance in history! Hands down. stellar stacked field too!
Everyone always says that was the greatest Jug. Here's a replay and if anyone is interested I just started a thread in the Nostalgia Forum here that has the replays of a bunch of the best Jugs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMYr9XAnxvg
Here's those other ones too. I used the other forum because the thread there will be pretty permanent on the board, here it disappears in a few days as more topics come up.
2015 Final Wiggle It Jiggle It https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW104c4PsMU
2015 Final Overhead Drone Footage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvVEmmWCueA
1965 Bret Hanover https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgUro_ylXIY
1971 Nansemond vs Albatross https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MyD62ybctM
1980 Niatross https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrdhS8jEaYI
1985 Nihilator https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWce5Ri6ZQY
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Everyone always says that was the greatest Jug. Here's a replay and if anyone is interested I just started a thread in the Nostalgia Forum here that has the replays of a bunch of the best Jugs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMYr9XAnxvg
Here's those other ones too. I used the other forum because the thread there will be pretty permanent on the board, here it disappears in a few days as more topics come up.
2015 Final Wiggle It Jiggle It https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW104c4PsMU
2015 Final Overhead Drone Footage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvVEmmWCueA
1965 Bret Hanover https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgUro_ylXIY
1971 Nansemond vs Albatross https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MyD62ybctM
1980 Niatross https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrdhS8jEaYI
1985 Nihilator https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWce5Ri6ZQY
Great stuff Thorn Thank you
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I’ll agree Confederate race at Lex was set up by a stable mate But it’s not like he just sat on his back for 7/8 of a mile. He pretty much cut his own mile and when he hit the lane he just kept catching gears. It should be interesting in the next few weeks. Y’all gotta remember the Jug has been irrelevant for the last 15 years
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I’ll agree Confederate race at Lex was set up by a stable mate But it’s not like he just sat on his back for 7/8 of a mile. He pretty much cut his own mile and when he hit the lane he just kept catching gears. It should be interesting in the next few weeks. Y’all gotta remember the Jug has been irrelevant for the last 15 years
Ty I think you stated concisely and clearly what i was trying to say. Confederate seemed almost lazy or disinterested given how conservatively Timmy SEEMED to be driving. If getting a very fast lifetime mark on the horse was the goal and it did work, they seemed to me anyway to go about in a most unusual way. you have to admit MOST horses with extreme speed dictate things especially in today's era. love all the debate Thanks everbody!
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true,you can dictate speed to win a race but if you are going for a record time best to have someone drill the 3/4 and you pick up the pieces
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true,you can dictate speed to win a race but if you are going for a record time best to have someone drill the 3/4 and you pick up the pieces
you are essentially correct. i guess i meant just blasting down the road with a chaser or 2 to keep you going. Just not in Confederate's dna
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I’ll be first to admit he is a great horse when he done this year……. If !!!!! He goes to the jug, AND WINS !! And then finishes up with a win in the breeders..
I don’t want to read how great he is, I want to see it… race on Confederate.
He's not going to the Jug -- if everything works out -- Cannibal goes to the Jug -- Confederate stays in Ky. for the Sire Stake final on the 17th. -- then it's off to Indiana.
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He's not going to the Jug -- if everything works out -- Cannibal goes to the Jug -- Confederate stays in Ky. for the Sire Stake final on the 17th. -- then it's off to Indiana.
Thats what I'm seeing
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Love the sarcasm - HE BELONGS AT THE JUG
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I think he has proven how good he is. Why take him to the jug, draw an 8 hole. People don't buy horses because they won the JUG, I think he'll do just fine in the stud barn without having been in the JUG. Didn't hurt Rocknroll Hanover.
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Life Sign's Jug final is the greatest performance by a 3 year old on a half mile,it defies explanation
Personally, i always liked the jug year when Fake Left beat Western Hanover. Great effort. Life Sign was a nice race horse but i totally side-step any yearling with Life Sign in the pedigree.
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Personally, i always liked the jug year when Fake Left beat Western Hanover. Great effort. Life Sign was a nice race horse but i totally side-step any yearling with Life Sign in the pedigree.
That's fine. I know zero about breeding.
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Personally, i always liked the jug year when Fake Left beat Western Hanover. Great effort. Life Sign was a nice race horse but i totally side-step any yearling with Life Sign in the pedigree.
Life Sign did sire some very good horses....none that went on to be sires, but he was a very good broodmare sire.
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Life Sign did sire some very good horses....none that went on to be sires, but he was a very good broodmare sire.
His son Real Desire actually was a decent sire and the grand-sire of Stockade Seelster -- so far the only hope to keep that Abercrombie line alive.
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I knew people would have problems with Artsplace because of a spotty 3 year old campaign.
As for Confederate instantly cracking the top 5 - he deserves it once he establishes himself as the fastest 3 year old ever.
Life Sign - you certainly dont have to sell me on him. I was ta the LBJ in 93 - very fortunate because it's the only pone I have ever been to. His win there, IMO, remains the greatest performance ever by a 3 year olfd on a half mile track. His win defied logic.
Hello Fuguzzi,
thanks for the trips dowm memory lane--i enjoyed many of your stories from decades ago.....
as far as having Artsplace on your list as a top 3yo season, that is laughable.
Artsplace was a champion 2yo and had an undefeated 4yo season, but calling his 3yo season "spotty" is flat out inaccurate. A chemically enhanced Precious Bunny dominated him all year in 1991..the head to head record was 7-2.
If that is your definition of "spotty" then ok. Also, Artsplace wasnt sick as a 3yo--i met one of the syndicate mempers at Harrahs Chester about 15 years ago, he told me flat out that Precious Bunny was milkshaked and had other EPOs in his sytsem, and he couldnt beat Bill Robinson. He emphasized Artsplace wasnt sick whatsoever, just got his ass kicked all year. Thank you, Sir.
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on a slightly different but connected topic
you are seeing the proof of some of these milkshaked/epo horses that were duds at stud
cassie horses have been bad for the most part
none of bill robinsons did much of anything
now i am in no way suggesting that other top trainers are not helping horses but clearly they are not crossing the line as i think these two did along with others
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Hello Fuguzzi,
thanks for the trips dowm memory lane--i enjoyed many of your stories from decades ago.....
as far as having Artsplace on your list as a top 3yo season, that is laughable.
Artsplace was a champion 2yo and had an undefeated 4yo season, but calling his 3yo season "spotty" is flat out inaccurate. A chemically enhanced Precious Bunny dominated him all year in 1991..the head to head record was 7-2.
If that is your definition of "spotty" then ok. Also, Artsplace wasnt sick as a 3yo--i met one of the syndicate mempers at Harrahs Chester about 15 years ago, he told me flat out that Precious Bunny was milkshaked and had other EPOs in his sytsem, and he couldnt beat Bill Robinson. He emphasized Artsplace wasnt sick whatsoever, just got his ass kicked all year. Thank you, Sir.
Ok, Ty for the info. I used "spotty" because it in no way did it compare to his 2 and 4 year old seasons. I was including him in a list that although I called it "best 3 year olds ever" I was really saying the best Pacers I have lived to see. thinking back, I could esily include Jenna's Beach Boy. I do believe your assertions that Precious Bunny was a pig with out chemistry. I never cared for him or his connections and he was a lousy sire. ( over all ) His mares were all whack jobs for one. I appreciate your putting things into greater clarity.
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Ok, Ty for the info. I used "spotty" because it in no way did it compare to his 2 and 4 year old seasons. I was including him in a list that although I called it "best 3 year olds ever" I was really saying the best Pacers I have lived to see. thinking back, I could esily include Jenna's Beach Boy. I do believe your assertions that Precious Bunny was a pig with out chemistry. I never cared for him or his connections and he was a lousy sire. ( over all ) His mares were all whack jobs for one. I appreciate your putting things into greater clarity.
No worries
just a side note, while i dont disagree with Nihilator being on the list, there are many who claim he had help(Pershing Square, Chairmanoftheboar d and a few others whose names escape me) setting road blocks up for Nihilator--being a part of a three and four team coupled entry with stablemates might put an asterisk next to Nihilator's
name--having said that i agree he should be on the list.
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May very well have had help. He was just so powerful, along stride like daddy and if you look at his resume, He has so many "first to ever" or "most ever". of course many of those records have been broken now. I was the BigM all of 85 and he spent a lot of time there.
I know Dr. Seeber was at the Haughton barn like a resident LOL I like your perspectives, ty!
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May very well have had help. He was just so powerful, along stride like daddy and if you look at his resume, He has so many "first to ever" or "most ever". of course many of those records have been broken now. I was the BigM all of 85 and he spent a lot of time there.
I know Dr. Seeber was at the Haughton barn like a resident LOL I like your perspectives, ty!
I am going to submit another perspective that isnt very popular.
SBSW--lightly raced, most of his races were against Ontario Gold Series horses
He made a meaningless speed mark at Lexington(46.4 i believe), the same day Art Official raced in 46.4, (Lexington "seeded" them in separate divisions preventing the rematch),other than that, he was protected and rested between races, skipped many of the big 3yo races in the US, and unlike Niatross, who only two losses(37 wins out of 39 races)had legit excuses(fever at Saratoga and then broke stride in the M Pace elim), SBSW came to the Big M Pace completely rested and healthy, brought his "A " game--and was defeated. I think he only raced 19 times in his entire career. His best race was his final race--at Yonkers in the rain where he defeated Shadow Play by a nose in a memorable stretch battle. He showed some real guts in that race even though he raced on the better part of the track with all the rain. MacGrath then scratched him out of Dover, rumor has it because he didnt want another loss pinned on his record. He was extremely lightly raced to have an undefeated career, that failed and it wasnt MacDonnell's fault, or YGs drive on Bullville Powerful that beat him. He just wasnt an all time great. I am sorry that this will upset many people here.
These are facts.
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I am going to submit another perspective that isnt very popular.
SBSW--lightly raced, most of his races were against Ontario Gold Series horses
He made a meaningless speed mark at Lexington(46.4 i believe), the same day Art Official raced in 46.4, (Lexington "seeded" them in separate divisions preventing the rematch),other than that, he was protected and rested between races, skipped many of the big 3yo races in the US, and unlike Niatross, who only two losses(37 wins out of 39 races)had legit excuses(fever at Saratoga and then broke stride in the M Pace elim), SBSW came to the Big M Pace completely rested and healthy, brought his "A " game--and was defeated. I think he only raced 19 times in his entire career. His best race was his final race--at Yonkers in the rain where he defeated Shadow Play by a nose in a memorable stretch battle. He showed some real guts in that race even though he raced on the better part of the track with all the rain. MacGrath then scratched him out of Dover, rumor has it because he didnt want another loss pinned on his record. He was extremely lightly raced to have an undefeated career, that failed and it wasnt MacDonnell's fault, or YGs drive on Bullville Powerful that beat him. He just wasnt an all time great. I am sorry that this will upset many people here.
These are facts.
True he was definitely a pampered three year old. But what a sire. When the sport was in need of an outcross pacing sire SBSW single handedly brought back the Volomite line to prominence.
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I am going to submit another perspective that isnt very popular.
SBSW--lightly raced, most of his races were against Ontario Gold Series horses
He made a meaningless speed mark at Lexington(46.4 i believe), the same day Art Official raced in 46.4, (Lexington "seeded" them in separate divisions preventing the rematch),other than that, he was protected and rested between races, skipped many of the big 3yo races in the US, and unlike Niatross, who only two losses(37 wins out of 39 races)had legit excuses(fever at Saratoga and then broke stride in the M Pace elim), SBSW came to the Big M Pace completely rested and healthy, brought his "A " game--and was defeated. I think he only raced 19 times in his entire career. His best race was his final race--at Yonkers in the rain where he defeated Shadow Play by a nose in a memorable stretch battle. He showed some real guts in that race even though he raced on the better part of the track with all the rain. MacGrath then scratched him out of Dover, rumor has it because he didnt want another loss pinned on his record. He was extremely lightly raced to have an undefeated career, that failed and it wasnt MacDonnell's fault, or YGs drive on Bullville Powerful that beat him. He just wasnt an all time great. I am sorry that this will upset many people here.
These are facts.
In many ways I agree with all that you said, In fact the only reason I put him in my top 5 and not Cam's Card Shark or Jenna's Beach Boy was Because I knew I would hear a lot of shit if i didn't and because he overcame his driver and because of his memorable Meadowlands Pace albeit in dereat. he was so naturally talented. that you cant take away...
Personalli i wasnt the greatest SBSW fan but felt he had to be recognized as an immortal horse.
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I am going to submit another perspective that isnt very popular.
SBSW--lightly raced, most of his races were against Ontario Gold Series horses
He made a meaningless speed mark at Lexington(46.4 i believe), the same day Art Official raced in 46.4, (Lexington "seeded" them in separate divisions preventing the rematch),other than that, he was protected and rested between races, skipped many of the big 3yo races in the US, and unlike Niatross, who only two losses(37 wins out of 39 races)had legit excuses(fever at Saratoga and then broke stride in the M Pace elim), SBSW came to the Big M Pace completely rested and healthy, brought his "A " game--and was defeated. I think he only raced 19 times in his entire career. His best race was his final race--at Yonkers in the rain where he defeated Shadow Play by a nose in a memorable stretch battle. He showed some real guts in that race even though he raced on the better part of the track with all the rain. MacGrath then scratched him out of Dover, rumor has it because he didnt want another loss pinned on his record. He was extremely lightly raced to have an undefeated career, that failed and it wasnt MacDonnell's fault, or YGs drive on Bullville Powerful that beat him. He just wasnt an all time great. I am sorry that this will upset many people here.
These are facts.
Well.....those are not really the facts. He did race 21 times, missed a few due to sickness. Sadly, this is very common. To look at some other horses and starts... Tall Dark Stranger 22 starts, Muscle Hill 21, Greenshoe 17, Bulldog Hanover had 21 start between 2 and 3 year old....Confederat e only has 15 starts to date, what will he end his career with??? 20 or so. The top three yr old over the last 10 to 15 years retire around 25 starts. It sucks....but it's the way our breed has gone.
He only raced in 3 OSS races, 2 elims and a final at 3. In the final there were 3 other millionaires. He did race in the Battle of Waterloo in his first two lifetime starts which is an Ontario stake. The same day SBSW won in 46.4 Art Official won in 48.3. SBSW raced against an extremely good crop....I forget exactly but I believe there were 17 or 18 that made over a $1 million lifetime. An amazing career and an even better breeding career. Easily one of the best of all time.
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OK Lance--thanks for the corrections
comparing him to all the other lightly raced horses since then means little
he didnt dance many dances--didnt face adversity, skipped almost all of the big 3 yo races
my point is when you dont dance all the dances and are rested heavily between races, you avoid many issues like wear and tear that racing regularly provides, you avoid outside draws, getting parked, getting used, facing your peers on a normal schedule
Shadow Play was the only other decent 3yo he faced--Art Official was a joke and then you go down to Badlands Nitro
pointing at earnings means little- slot welfare enhancing purses doesnt impress me-hardly a top crop of 3yos
of course he was a good sire--no arguing that-but i was referring to his racing career not his stud career
one of the most over rated popular horses of all time
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OK Lance--thanks for the corrections
comparing him to all the other lightly raced horses since then means little
he didnt dance many dances--didnt face adversity, skipped almost all of the big 3 yo races
my point is when you dont dance all the dances and are rested heavily between races, you avoid many issues like wear and tear that racing regularly provides, you avoid outside draws, getting parked, getting used, facing your peers on a normal schedule
Shadow Play was the only other decent 3yo he faced--Art Official was a joke and then you go down to Badlands Nitro
pointing at earnings means little- slot welfare enhancing purses doesnt impress me-hardly a top crop of 3yos
of course he was a good sire--no arguing that-but i was referring to his racing career not his stud career
one of the most over rated popular horses of all time
I stand firmly with Jackie Mo here. Lotta Canadian hype too
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OK Lance--thanks for the corrections
comparing him to all the other lightly raced horses since then means little
he didnt dance many dances--didnt face adversity, skipped almost all of the big 3 yo races
my point is when you dont dance all the dances and are rested heavily between races, you avoid many issues like wear and tear that racing regularly provides, you avoid outside draws, getting parked, getting used, facing your peers on a normal schedule
Shadow Play was the only other decent 3yo he faced--Art Official was a joke and then you go down to Badlands Nitro
pointing at earnings means little- slot welfare enhancing purses doesnt impress me-hardly a top crop of 3yos
of course he was a good sire--no arguing that-but i was referring to his racing career not his stud career
one of the most over rated popular horses of all time
Other than the Jug, SBSW raced in all the big ones. Burlington, NA Cup, Meadowlands Pace, Simcoe, Bluegrass, Confederation Cup, Tatterstalls, Messenger, Breeders Crown.
You can compare him to the lightly raced horses because every horse that is a top horse, trotter or pacer retires with 20-25 starts. This is normal and has been for a while. I don't like it but its reality. You can talk about every crop in history as being weak, etc. This was a very above average crop and you had a horse retiring as the richest and fastest 3 yr old of all time. Not sure what else you would have to do.
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you can only beast who lines up on the gate with you
and he did that all but once