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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Balmoral buzz on October 13, 2023, 10:23:21 PM
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He's not a stakes horse driver. He can hold his own at the B and C track overnight races. Seems like a nice kid but business is business.
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This brings up an interesting thought What would you consider the top 3 "A" tracks? And how would you classify YR today? A, B. C?
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This brings up an interesting thought What would you consider the top 3 "A" tracks? And how would you classify YR today? A, B. C?
Meadowlands and Yonkers are the only 2 "A" tracks in the USA. Mohawk is the only "A" track in Canada. All three tracks have very good horses that could win anywhere, However, I can promise you, the top drivers at the Meadowlands and the top drivers at Yonkers are MUCH better than Mohawk's top. I guarantee if Dexter, Yannick, Miller, Tetrick, Brennan, Zeron, the McCarthys, Bartlett and Kakaley showed up at Mohawk for a full meet, they would put most of the Mohawk regulars on the bench.
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Meadowlands and Yonkers are the only 2 "A" tracks in the USA. Mohawk is the only "A" track in Canada. All three tracks have very good horses that could win anywhere, However, I can promise you, the top drivers at the Meadowlands and the top drivers at Yonkers are MUCH better than Mohawk's top. I guarantee if Dexter, Yannick, Miller, Tetrick, Brennan, Zeron, the McCarthys, Bartlett and Kakaley showed up at Mohawk for a full meet, they would put most of the Mohawk regulars on the bench.
Well said. Meadowlands and Yonkers are only two A tracks left in USA. Hoosier is B- bad after this year will most likely stay B or C. Look st that drivers colony ay Hoosier. Most of their top guys would be valet attendants at the casino at the A tracks.
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prices galore at C+/B- HAWTHORNE too tonight.
form held up well.. lots of quality payoffs
give it try if you can work it in.
and yes..brandon bates 4 wins tonight and a second or two...nothing wrong w that
7.40, 5.40, 63.20, 9.10 win$
(metal detector nowhere in sight..and thats good. bravo Brandon)
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This brings up an interesting thought What would you consider the top 3 "A" tracks? And how would you classify YR today? A, B. C?
Yonkers a 'A' track today? Seriously? There are only about 15 regular drivers there at best! You'd have to cancel the rest of a Yonkers card if there was a major accident early! There aren't many/if any 'A' drivers there today, excluding Brennan. The top 5 Meadowlands drivers are way better than the top 5 at Yonkers (Holland wasn't better than a 'B' driver in his glory days in Chicago)!
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Yonkers a 'A' track today? Seriously? There are only about 15 regular drivers there at best! You'd have to cancel the rest of a Yonkers card if there was a major accident early! There aren't many/if any 'A' drivers there today, excluding Brennan. The top 5 Meadowlands drivers are way better than the top 5 at Yonkers (Holland wasn't better than a 'B' driver in his glory days in Chicago)!
I agree with you but put Marohn or Holland or pat La Chance at Hoosier and they would be leading drivers. I’ll take the bottom guys at Yonkers over top guys Hoosier any day.
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Per the above sentiments - pretty much what i expected to hear, ty. Aligns with my thinking too. Just wasn't sure how you, Mike C. or anyone else would classify YR these days. I am not sure, that's for sure! Many very good horses, handful of above average drivers including one HOF in brennan, but the end product is some of the most boring, uninteresting out there. Weird paradox.
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Is there really one track you would call A track ? The old Meadowlands was the only A track. Had the best of the best, horses, drivers & trainers. Now seems like driving colonies are spread thin 2 solid guys at most tracks from Oct til all the snow birds come back in May.
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I honestly feel like you do. Figured I would ignite a fuse if I said so. Big M, YR, RR, Woodbine at their zeniths - A Now, they get a max of B+
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Old Meadows was like the SB , WS , NBA championship & Stanley Cup all rolled into one on a nightly basis. Now the have am races and 7500 claimer s.
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Old Meadows was like the SB , WS , NBA championship & Stanley Cup all rolled into one on a nightly basis. Now the have am races and 7500 claimer s.
I hope you meant Meadowlands, not Meadows.
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I agree with you but put Marohn or Holland or pat La Chance at Hoosier and they would be leading drivers. I’ll take the bottom guys at Yonkers over top guys Hoosier any day.
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The scariest part about this is that they make a good living because there is a lack of good drivers at many tracks in North America today. Especially Yonkers!! Get a good draw, sit there and get a good 5% check!! It’s a shame that no good drivers can ‘invade’ Yonkers and make it a better place. A few regulars there now could take a pay cut if this happened!!
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I agree with you but put Marohn or Holland or pat La Chance at Hoosier and they would be leading drivers. I’ll take the bottom guys at Yonkers over top guys Hoosier any day.
That’s not saying much about the quality at either track, is it!!
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Keep them coming! Two separate threads are full of valid points and STILL no sermon by Pastor Park! ngc3
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Bruce Ranger, right now, in his early 60s, if he came to YR, would out drive Bartett and be number 2. Maybe not Brennan, but Bartlett, yes. Starting when he was 19, until right now, Bruce can flat out drive a horse.
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Bruce Ranger, right now, in his early 60s, if he came to YR, would out drive Bartett and be number 2. Maybe not Brennan, but Bartlett, yes. Starting when he was 19, until right now, Bruce can flat out drive a horse.
If anyone came in and outperfohind Brennan.rmed Bartlett, they'd be #, not #2 be.
Right now, Bartlett leads Brennan by over 150 wins for the year.
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I hope you meant Meadowlands, not Meadows.
I did , it was such and experience , wether sitting in the clubhouse on the apron or racing.
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If anyone came in and outperfohind Brennan.rmed Bartlett, they'd be #, not #2 be.
Right now, Bartlett leads Brennan by over 150 wins for the year.
Well as you know, many nights Brennan is off driving somewhere else,and then there is little for Bartlett to beat. I'm sure you remember the night Brennan, Bon Bon and Marohn Jr. were up in Canada, Jason won 7. You know Brennan is defintely a superior driver
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Well as you know, many nights Brennan is off driving somewhere else,and then there is little for Bartlett to beat. I'm sure you remember the night Brennan, Bon Bon and Marohn Jr. were up in Canada, Jason won 7. You know Brennan is defintely a superior driver
No, I do not know that.
I do know Bartlett's driven about 165 more races at YR this year than Brennan so your logic has him winning 90%+ of those to account for the 150 win spread.
You'd also have to concoct some reasoning to account for the spread in win percentages 25% to 17%, Bartlett.
If you told me you'd take Brennan over Bartlett in a Stakes race on a mile track, I'd say fair point and, mayhaps, even agree.
But overall, it isn't really close and hasn't been for some time.
jmvhmfo
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No, I do not know that.
I do know Bartlett's driven about 165 more races at YR this year than Brennan so your logic has him winning 90%+ of those to account for the 150 win spread.
You'd also have to concoct some reasoning to account for the spread in win percentages 25% to 17%, Bartlett.
If you told me you'd take Brennan over Bartlett in a Stakes race on a mile track, I'd say fair point and, mayhaps, even agree.
But overall, it isn't really close and hasn't been for some time.
jmvhmfo
So you are trying to tell me Jason Bartlett is a better driver than George Brennan? career to career?
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Brennan 10th all time in wins, 7th all time in earnings Admittedly Jason is approacing both neighborhoods Jason DOES have a very strong win total given the number of drives it took to accomplish it. I will grant you that and respect that! But Jason drives against virtually nobody night after night and it has been that way for years. Very good talented driver, but a very big fish in a very small pond. When I was at YR / RR/ Meadowlands there were HOFers across the gate.
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The 200 Milion earned club is very sacred ground as far as drivers and Brennan is in it. That makes him special and a sure fire HOF.
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No, I do not know that.
I do know Bartlett's driven about 165 more races at YR this year than Brennan so your logic has him winning 90%+ of those to account for the 150 win spread.
You'd also have to concoct some reasoning to account for the spread in win percentages 25% to 17%, Bartlett.
If you told me you'd take Brennan over Bartlett in a Stakes race on a mile track, I'd say fair point and, mayhaps, even agree.
But overall, it isn't really close and hasn't been for some time.
jmvhmfo
These people hate Jason Bartlett, good luck presenting them with facts
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I don't know anyone who "hates" Jason Bartlett. My time was admittedly mostly before him. Seems like a good man, always hear good things, seems like he is on a HOF trajectory career wise, at least to me. Just saying that after him and George, not much talent left at YR for a long time. Sears was there true, but Holland , Kakaley, Marohn Jr, Patrick, Joey B, second tier talent. As I pointed out Jason got to 10,000 in a very short number of drives career wise. That's a very solid accomplishment.
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I don't know anyone who "hates" Jason Bartlett. My time was admittedly mostly before him. Seems like a good man, always hear good things, seems like he is on a HOF trajectory career wise, at least to me. Just saying that after him and George, not much talent left at YR for a long time. Sears was there true, but Holland , Kakaley, Marohn Jr, Patrick, Joey B, second tier talent. As I pointed out Jason got to 10,000 in a very short number of drives career wise. That's a very solid accomplishment.
Jordan Stratton is a helluva driver. As typical, he is intentionally left out of the discussion cause of the Bartlett hate.
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And Kakaley is no slouch. How many of the others have pulled off a 9 win and a second in 10 races on the same night
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My apologies, I did omit Jordan. I thought i mentioned him in the nightly list of 8. Definitely better than the ones listed, correct. Lotta people on here were talking trash about Jordan because of Voukefelias. that's silly to measure him by one horse who had issues and was dealing with some monsters on the track
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And Kakaley is no slouch. How many of the others have pulled off a 9 win and a second in 10 races on the same night
Very few, but you can not define him by that special accomplishment. Not leading driver material, except at B or C tracks
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My apologies, I did omit Jordan. I thought i mentioned him in the nightly list of 8. Definitely better than the ones listed, correct. Lotta people on here were talking trash about Jordan because of Voukefelias. that's silly to measure him by one horse who had issues and was dealing with some monsters on the track
That is the Sam reason a bunch here hate Bartlett. He has had a few opportunities in big stakes races at The Big M and didn’t win. Mind you they were all 10+/1 shots
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That's their beef. I can't answer that. Those instances carry no meaning when defining a man's career.
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LOL I can think of many more drivers people on here could/should "hate" before Jason Bartlett. I see a lot of zombies out there as I watch more and more races. Trace Tetrick comes to mind immediately. He is awful.
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Bruce Ranger, right now, in his early 60s, if he came to YR, would out drive Bartett and be number 2. Maybe not Brennan, but Bartlett, yes. Starting when he was 19, until right now, Bruce can flat out drive a horse.
I DISAGREE. THEN WHY DID HE STAY AT FLORIDA FOR SHIT PURSES ALL THOS YEARS. I WILL SAY IN MY OPINION BRUCE RANGER WAS WAYYYYYYYY BETTER THEN HENNESSEY AT POMPANO BUT HE IS A SICK GAMBLER AND GABE JUST KISSED WALLYS ASS ON A NIGHTLY BASIS. BUT NO WAY COULD RANGER OUTDRIVE BARTLETT AT YONKERS. AT POMPANO YES OF COURSE BUT NOT AT YONKERS.
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Amazing...can name 50 drivers that if had the best horse would win most if the times.. that includes Marcus miller
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I DISAGREE. THEN WHY DID HE STAY AT FLORIDA FOR SHIT PURSES ALL THOS YEARS. I WILL SAY IN MY OPINION BRUCE RANGER WAS WAYYYYYYYY BETTER THEN HENNESSEY AT POMPANO BUT HE IS A SICK GAMBLER AND GABE JUST KISSED WALLYS ASS ON A NIGHTLY BASIS. BUT NO WAY COULD RANGER OUTDRIVE BARTLETT AT YONKERS. AT POMPANO YES OF COURSE BUT NOT AT YONKERS.
There is a reason ranger has always stayed on the B circuit. Just like Palone
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I DISAGREE. THEN WHY DID HE STAY AT FLORIDA FOR SHIT PURSES ALL THOS YEARS. I WILL SAY IN MY OPINION BRUCE RANGER WAS WAYYYYYYYY BETTER THEN HENNESSEY AT POMPANO BUT HE IS A SICK GAMBLER AND GABE JUST KISSED WALLYS ASS ON A NIGHTLY BASIS. BUT NO WAY COULD RANGER OUTDRIVE BARTLETT AT YONKERS. AT POMPANO YES OF COURSE BUT NOT AT YONKERS.
Bruce is not a sick gambler at all. in fact, he hasn't done anything "addictive" in years. he is born again, tithes much of his earnings and actually counsels persons suffering addiction and grief and in person. he turned his life around and has stayed straight and helped many. please dont trash him based on misinformation. Bruce could drive with anyone, anywhere. most guy who will win 12,000 can.
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Bruce Ranger was great at Pompano. Wally Hennessy was great at Pompano. Both are doing just fine since Pompano closed. Wally gets my nod for a better career because he performed well in NY Sire Stakes and occasionally on the international circuit with a fabulous trotter. Taking nothing away from Ranger, I recall an interview a few years back after he started driving again in Maine. When asked if he would return to Pompano he said absolutely not. He hated racing there. He hated the weather, the heat, rain, lightening whatever. I never read anything like that from Wally. Now it is not fair to compare either men to Bartlett. To my knowledge neither Bruce or Wally spent much if any time at Yonkers where there are some very good drivers. Neither Bruce or Wally competed consistently against any group like these drivers. Plus Bartlett holds his own when he drives outside of Yonkers regardless of what some others are writing. IMO Bartlett will walk into the HOF one day. There should not be any minimizing his fantastic results.
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There is a reason ranger has always stayed on the B circuit. Just like Palone
He unfortunately had to when he was in his prime. He straightened out past 40. Better late than never. He is an outstanding talent. When he broke in in New England as a kid of 18, he vaulted right to the top of a group that has almost 100,000 wins now. A great cradle of drivers.
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How much would you pay for Marcus Miller to fly in and drive your horse?
That is LOL funny.
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He unfortunately had to when he was in his prime. He straightened out past 40. Better late than never. He is an outstanding talent. When he broke in in New England as a kid of 18, he vaulted right to the top of a group that has almost 100,000 wins now. A great cradle of drivers.
So what f he could dominate Yonkers Then why stay in Maine year round racing for peanuts??
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Bruce Ranger was great at Pompano. Wally Hennessy was great at Pompano. Both are doing just fine since Pompano closed. Wally gets my nod for a better career because he performed well in NY Sire Stakes and occasionally on the international circuit with a fabulous trotter. Taking nothing away from Ranger, I recall an interview a few years back after he started driving again in Maine. When asked if he would return to Pompano he said absolutely not. He hated racing there. He hated the weather, the heat, rain, lightening whatever. I never read anything like that from Wally. Now it is not fair to compare either men to Bartlett. To my knowledge neither Bruce or Wally spent much if any time at Yonkers where there are some very good drivers. Neither Bruce or Wally competed consistently against any group like these drivers. Plus Bartlett holds his own when he drives outside of Yonkers regardless of what some others are writing. IMO Bartlett will walk into the HOF one day. There should not be any minimizing his fantastic results.
Wally Hennesey is one of the 10 greatest drivers to ever live. An incredibly underrated HOFer, who can drive anything, anywhere and still rocks in his mid 60s. His lifetime win percentage is staggering To win 11,500 out of 45,000 drives is mind - boggling
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I have to reply to both of Fuguzzi's posts, the oldkodjak26 post, and Stan durbread's posts at 1 time here.
1. Whether Bruce 'hated the weather' is irrelevant. He made a very good living staying warm in the winter while sweating his ass off in the summer. FYI. Bruce had a townhouse right around the corner from Pompano Park [RIP]. He could have walked to work everyday without fighting traffic, etc.
2. Unfortunately, Bruce had issues in his younger days and survived them and look where he is today. I have had a handful of chats outside his barn at Pompano years ago. Always very courteous and has straightened his life out. How many people have tried to straighten themselves out and failed??
He races for 'peanuts' in Maine while being the leading driver at Plainridge Park and look what he makes at Plainridge. From what I heard at Plainridge; you have to take some drives for 'peanuts' so you don't lose other drives elsewhere in Maine/Massachusetts. People forget quickly up there regardless of your past laurels and accomplishments.
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So what f he could dominate Yonkers Then why stay in Maine year round racing for peanuts??
age, family ties to the area and his involvement with faith and causes outside racing.
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I have to reply to both of Fuguzzi's posts, the oldkodjak26 post, and Stan durbread's posts at 1 time here.
1. Whether Bruce 'hated the weather' is irrelevant. He made a very good living staying warm in the winter while sweating his ass off in the summer.
2. Unfortunately, Bruce had issues in his younger days and survived them and look where he is today. I have had a handful of chats outside his barn at Pompano years ago. Always very courteous and has straightened his life out. How many people have tried to straighten themselves out and failed??
He races for 'peanuts' in Maine while being the leading driver at Plainridge Park and look what he makes at Plainridge. From what I heard at Plainridge; you have to take some drives for 'peanuts' so you don't lose other drives elsewhere in Maine/Massachusetts. People forget quickly up there regardless of your past laurels and accomplishments.
3.
I appreciate your words and perspectives about Bruce. i know from your posts, New England racing is your meat, was mine in my starting days.
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I appreciate your words and perspectives about Bruce. i know from your posts, New England racing is your meat, was mine in my starting days.
FYI, i grew up in Buffalo NY Fuguzzi. I started my ownership at Pompano Park (RIP) in 2004 {before slots} and watched many races there from the fan's perspective and an owner's perspective and enjoyed every moment doing this. I currently have ownership in 2 horses racing at various places in the northeast (Yonkers, Saratoga, and Plainridge).
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Bruce Ranger was great at Pompano. Wally Hennessy was great at Pompano. Both are doing just fine since Pompano closed. Wally gets my nod for a better career because he performed well in NY Sire Stakes and occasionally on the international circuit with a fabulous trotter. Taking nothing away from Ranger, I recall an interview a few years back after he started driving again in Maine. When asked if he would return to Pompano he said absolutely not. He hated racing there. He hated the weather, the heat, rain, lightening whatever. I never read anything like that from Wally. Now it is not fair to compare either men to Bartlett. To my knowledge neither Bruce or Wally spent much if any time at Yonkers where there are some very good drivers. Neither Bruce or Wally competed consistently against any group like these drivers. Plus Bartlett holds his own when he drives outside of Yonkers regardless of what some others are writing. IMO Bartlett will walk into the HOF one day. There should not be any minimizing his fantastic results.
I completely agree Jason will find himself in the HOF one day as will Brennan. Jason has an amazing career win percentage, no doubt and will win like 12 - 13 thousand Ome question, i must have missed it. Where did Jason do well or hold his own outside YR. I would love to know how many races he won away from YR. i cant find that. Maybe early days, I guess
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FYI, i grew up in Buffalo NY Fuguzzi. I started my ownership at Pompano Park (RIP) in 2004 {before slots} and watched many races there from the fan's perspective and an owner's perspective and enjoyed every moment doing this. I currently have ownership in 2 horses racing at various places in the northeast (Yonkers, Saratoga, and Plainridge).
Gotcha, TY. Just seemed from your posts you are always in touch with whats going on in New England
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Ranger's ex wife is in jail for selling Fishman's drugs.
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Ranger's ex wife is in jail for selling Fishman's drugs.
No shit?
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ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
7 cents
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No shit?
Lisa Giannelli used to be Lisa Ranger
https://harnessracingupdate.com/2022/09/08/lisa-giannelli-sentenced-to-3-1-2-years-in-prison-for-role-in-horse-doping-scandal/
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So long ago, i don't see the relevance, mike.
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I remember she and Bruce once got a tube positive in Fla. but that was over 30 years ago. everyone tubed then. You couldn't compete with out it.
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So long ago, i don't see the relevance, mike.
Just stating a fact. I know a very different Bruce Ranger. He was crook, drug addict and even after he got clean, he was sleeping with a trainers wife that I knew and should have had the shit beaten out of him. Unfortunately, the trainer died and before his body was cold, Ranger moved in with her and her kids. He is a A1 slimeball. Born again bible shit my ass.
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OK
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I completely agree Jason will find himself in the HOF one day as will Brennan. Jason has an amazing career win percentage, no doubt and will win like 12 - 13 thousand Ome question, i must have missed it. Where did Jason do well or hold his own outside YR. I would love to know how many races he won away from YR. i cant find that. Maybe early days, I guess
I can only tell you what Bartlett’s 2023 stats are:
Yonkers 24.8% win, 58.5% ITM $6,817,375 Earnings
Others. 19.7% win, 49.5% ITM $2,218,145 Earnings
Nothing to sneeze about home or away
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He is having an outstanding year. Maybe the best of his career, but i don't follow that close.
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Just stating a fact. I know a very different Bruce Ranger. He was crook, drug addict and even after he got clean, he was sleeping with a trainers wife that I knew and should have had the shit beaten out of him. Unfortunately, the trainer died and before his body was cold, Ranger moved in with her and her kids. He is a A1 slimeball. Born again bible shit my ass.
Nice guy, man of faith ngc3
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Just stating a fact. I know a very different Bruce Ranger. He was crook, drug addict and even after he got clean, he was sleeping with a trainers wife that I knew and should have had the shit beaten out of him. Unfortunately, the trainer died and before his body was cold, Ranger moved in with her and her kids. He is a A1 slimeball. Born again bible shit my ass.
Nice guy, man of faith ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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Bruce has changed his an amazing way,,,it’s almost unbelievable,,I new the old BR who was a lot of fun,,,,but the new BR is in a league of very few,,,,stay clean my friend
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Nice guy, man of faith ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
Don't you love this born again bullshit. For most of his life, he was a scuzzball drug addict that stole, lied and cheated and one day he makes an announcement that he found God and now everyone is kissing his ass and praising him as though he is now farting out rainbows and shitting ice cream. Once a scumbag, always a scumbag.
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Yes its all bullshit Mike. Start taxing these Christian Churches and there will be a new generation of used car salesmen looking for work.
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Zero,zippo,none and Absolutely nothing! 11.wp
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Yes its all bullshit Mike. Start taxing these Christian Churches and there will be a new generation of used car salesmen looking for work.
Exactly tmbz1
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Regardless if you were born Christian, Jewish, Muslim or born again, if I was our creator watching how the human race is destroying so much I would just blow the earth up and start over. What is happening to all the innocent families on both sides of the Gaza Strip is so inhumane. The only good thing about the Gaza situation, and this is a wild stretch, is that the inhumane conditions in the Ukraine has temporarily taken a back seat with our media.
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So long ago, i don't see the relevance, mike.
All depends what kind of divorce they had. Fishman had the best drugs available and if they were still cool there is a definite connection there fug man if you know what I mean.
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Bruce has changed his an amazing way,,,it’s almost unbelievable,,I new the old BR who was a lot of fun,,,,but the new BR is in a league of very few,,,,stay clean my friend
tmbz1
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wouldnt even pay for the ticket.
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All depends what kind of divorce they had. Fishman had the best drugs available and if they were still cool there is a definite connection there fug man if you know what I mean.
I dont know anything about their divorce. i do know one thing that contributed to his change was that he almost got killed on the track. It's just so long ago, that based on Fishman's age, he was still in vet school. Didn't thing bringing up a live driver like Bruce would bring up such venom.
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Nice guy, man of faith ngc3
ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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just read through this thread....anyone who thinks bartlett is better than george brennan should take up dog racing...and bartlett in the HOF one day?? if tony mo ain't in...bartlett ain't gettin in either
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Bartlett and Brennan will definitely be n the HOF. Tony M should have been in by now and as discussed previously he must have some enemies amount the voters. It makes no sense that he isn’t already in.
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Replying to racing123 and theo...
Totally agree about Morgan! I have been beating that drum since I joined the site. In fact no one should be elected before Brett Pelling, Tony Morgan and Steve Elliott. Those are no brainers that no one can rationally argue with. Only reason they are not in is enemies, bias, hate and ENVY!
George Brennan is in the rarified 200 MIllion club that defines him as "better" than Jason Bartlett but competing head to head Jason is comparable if not better right now. Yes, of course, Theo Both are going in the HOF George first then Jason not too far behind
In about 4 years, God willing, Merriman will zoooom past Morgan in to second place all time with 18,000. Lets see how long the powers that be keep HIM out of Goshen telling us the message that he drives the B circuit, b;lah, blah, blah like the voters like to do.
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Morgan should be in the Illinois Hall Of Fame. He hasn’t ever been able to compete in Grand Circuit races outside of Chicago
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Not true entirely He has significant wins Did very well Mid Atlantic circuit First driver ever to reach 850 wins in a season Pretty sure he won a Jugette and at least 1 BC event 2nd all time and not in the HOF? An embarrasment to the industry.
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Not true entirely He has significant wins Did very well Mid Atlantic circuit First driver ever to reach 850 wins in a season Pretty sure he won a Jugette and at least 1 BC event 2nd all time and not in the HOF? An embarrasment to the industry.
I know a travel agent that can set you and Tony up on a lovers cruise. Let me know.
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Id tell Marcus you're more the typeof driver we bike in rather tham fly in.
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I would pay Marcus to stay away. Best money ever spent
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I know a travel agent that can set you and Tony up on a lovers cruise. Let me know.
Mike, you get real nasty, real fast when nobody has done anything to you. I had the impression considering we hail from the same places an eras, we had respect for each other. No matter, but I ask this question. back in the day if you were racing live horses on Chicago or Ohio circuits, who would you have put down to drive ahead of him?
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Mike, you get real nasty, real fast when nobody has done anything to you. I had the impression considering we hail from the same places an eras, we had respect for each other. No matter, but I ask this question. back in the day if you were racing live horses on Chicago or Ohio circuits, who would you have put down to drive ahead of him?
Magee,Marsh,Holland occasionally Widger
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Tony didn’t win all those races on driving talent alone. I was stabled at Sportsmans when he was slinking around the backstretch in the afternoon with his little bag of goodies.
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It can not be denied that T. MO is , was if your and asshole, absolutely one of the most talented light hand human beings to ever sit in a bike. Could drive your horse and get off the bike and tell you exactly where it was off.
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It can not be denied that T. MO is , was if your and asshole, absolutely one of the most talented light hand human beings to ever sit in a bike. Could drive your horse and get off the bike and tell you exactly where it was off.
Tony is a good horseman and driver but has never been mentioned along with the greats. There is a reason why he couldn’t compete on the major circuits. Even after he moved east he couldn’t play with the top drivers at Meadowlands
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go you guys realize there only one favorite in race and about half the field with a good chance........sp the same drivers get the top drives if any one with talent and all on here bashed has they would be top dogat a circuit.....ANY CIRCUIT
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It can not be denied that T. MO is , was if your and asshole, absolutely one of the most talented light hand human beings to ever sit in a bike. Could drive your horse and get off the bike and tell you exactly where it was off.
The typos make your post a bit hard to fully comprehend.
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Sometimes it's hard to know for sure who truly hooked up a horse even once in their life and who didn't from some of the posts. That aside there are some truly great perspectives and posts on here. But you have to just sit back and laugh when people are on here knocking a guy who won over 18.000 races.
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Sometimes it's hard to know for sure who truly hooked up a horse even once in their life and who didn't from some of the posts. That aside there are some truly great perspectives and posts on here. But you have to just sit back and laugh when people are on here knocking a guy who won over 18.000 races.
You're getting confused by 18,000. A HOF driver should have won big races like triple crown, Meadowlands Pace, NA Cup etc. Morgan hasn't. Ben Webster's resume is much better than Morgan's. Shouldn't he get in before him?
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Sometimes it's hard to know for sure who truly hooked up a horse even once in their life and who didn't from some of the posts. That aside there are some truly great perspectives and posts on here. But you have to just sit back and laugh when people are on here knocking a guy who won over 18.000 races.
The ( was if your and asshole are the people who will say he’s over the hill , all done). T. MO is just as sharp now as he was 20 yr ago.
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You're getting confused by 18,000. A HOF driver should have won big races like triple crown, Meadowlands Pace, NA Cup etc. Morgan hasn't. Ben Webster's resume is much better than Morgan's. Shouldn't he get in before him?
Webster is a "fence sitter". 3 world champions a big plus, a Ny Metro mainstay another plus. Notorious race fixer who figured prominently in 2 big scandals and while many people I have encountered along the way liked Benny, many didn't. I get the fact that Tony only won a handful of important races, but many people with stellar careers just dont get the chance nor are chosen to drive in them. I just dont see how we throw 18,000 wins away. They had plenty of time to put Benny in, they didn't and Hell, he was right across the street.
One other thing, there has to be room for guys who win a ton of races regardless of whether they did the Grand Circuit / Triple Crown thing. I mean what are they gonna do with Aaron Merriman in 5 years or so when is flirting with 20,000? Say, Oh but he never won this or drove there?
Teddy Wing. Great horseman, skilled driver, fine trainer. I used him several times to catch drive and knew his outfit well. watched him as a kid. Very respected and popular. Around 5000 wins, Skip By Night, a few driving titles and they out him in. I saw his whole career up close. Where are his major grand circuit wins and Triple Crown and Breeders Crown wins. I know he defeated On The Road Again once in an important race and OTD on Kerry Gold a nice raceway horse. I think he once drove Tarport Hap. Knew him well and was there went he went in and shook his hand. Definitely a worthwhile choice, but would you take him over Tony Morgan to drive a horse for you anywhere at any time?
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Pete Rose was a great ball player. Will never be in HOF. Also you gotta wonder why when they moved to east coast Tony could no longer compete with Tetrick and A. Miller
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Pete Rose was a great ball player. Will never be in HOF. Also you gotta wonder why when they moved to east coast Tony could no longer compete with Tetrick and A. Miller
How does the Pete Rose analogy work. he broke the cardinal rule, then confessed to it, sign the deal with Bart Giamatti, a good deent man, then after Giamatti died, Rose pretended there was no deal and trashed Giamatti's name when the man was no longer around. Pete Rose was trailer trash who could hit a baseball. Of course he would be in the HOF if he hadn't fucked himself up and then lied. Plus, he's been a bust out since.
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How does the Pete Rose analogy work. he broke the cardinal rule, then confessed to it, sign the deal with Bart Giamatti, a good deent man, then after Giamatti died, Rose pretended there was no deal and trashed Giamatti's name when the man was no longer around. Pete Rose was trailer trash who could hit a baseball. Of course he would be in the HOF if he hadn't fucked himself up and then lied. Plus, he's been a bust out since.
When Tony was getting going as a catch driver he got a hot test on one he trained. Got 60 days. Went to the media and said he was not going to train anymore because he didn’t want to risk his driving career. Penny got a trainer’s license a few years later he got her a positive. She was never listed as trainer again. After that he used several down on their luck trainers as beards. Got everyone of them a positive then on too the next one. In the meantime he would stiff horses and tell guys to drop them in claimed. Boom his guy claimed them and back in conditions winning all of the sudden. After he got Bret Shultz a few positives he latched on to Hanson. Hanson couldn’t buy a cheeseburger but then all the sudden he was claiming horses for himself. All had been formally driven by Tony
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Welcome to the wonderful world of harness racing. Top guys ( drivers ) at almost all tracks pulled the same shit. Reason you don't hear about it today is, as you know, all top catch drivers don't train or maintain a stable anymore. They don't need to, to make a living. otherwise it would still be going on.
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Welcome to the wonderful world of harness racing. Top guys ( drivers ) at almost all tracks pulled the same shit. Reason you don't hear about it today is, as you know, all top catch drivers don't train or maintain a stable anymore. They don't need to, to make a living. otherwise it would still be going on.
Yea well Tony is a greedy pig. Look at how many Chrissmans have had a hot test since he landed in Delaware
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To be fair I don’t think Palone should be in HOF either. He never could play with the best. That should be main criteria for HOF
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Webster is a "fence sitter". 3 world champions a big plus, a Ny Metro mainstay another plus. Notorious race fixer who figured prominently in 2 big scandals and while many people I have encountered along the way liked Benny, many didn't. I get the fact that Tony only won a handful of important races, but many people with stellar careers just dont get the chance nor are chosen to drive in them. I just dont see how we throw 18,000 wins away. They had plenty of time to put Benny in, they didn't and Hell, he was right across the street.
One other thing, there has to be room for guys who win a ton of races regardless of whether they did the Grand Circuit / Triple Crown thing. I mean what are they gonna do with Aaron Merriman in 5 years or so when is flirting with 20,000? Say, Oh but he never won this or drove there?
Teddy Wing. Great horseman, skilled driver, fine trainer. I used him several times to catch drive and knew his outfit well. watched him as a kid. Very respected and popular. Around 5000 wins, Skip By Night, a few driving titles and they out him in. I saw his whole career up close. Where are his major grand circuit wins and Triple Crown and Breeders Crown wins. I know he defeated On The Road Again once in an important race and OTD on Kerry Gold a nice raceway horse. I think he once drove Tarport Hap. Knew him well and was there went he went in and shook his hand. Definitely a worthwhile choice, but would you take him over Tony Morgan to drive a horse for you anywhere at any time?
Benny won the Hambo, Messenger, Kentucky Futurity,LBJ, OTB Classic which at the time was one of the richest horse races. When he was in his prime, there were not many better. On a nightly basis, he competed against the best ever. In NY, he drove every night against Haughton, Dancer, Carmine, Insko, Chapman, Buddy, Sholty,Filion, Fontaine..ALL HALL OF FAMERS. I won't even get to his Meadowlands days where he drove against ALL HALL OF FAMERS. Tony Morgan's competition pales in comparison, not to mention the fact that he never won any big races.
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According to USTA, as of this morning, Morgan has 17,431 driving wins
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I acknowledged Webster won those races with 3 world champions. I think he suffered because of the race fixing scandals of the 70s. Given what you say, why else didn't they put him in? I M O, Herve, Carmine, Gilmour, Insko and Fontaine were on a higher plane than Webster. Maybe that's why they're in. He isn't.It is true that Tony only won a Jugette, a Woodrow Wilson and a Breeder's Crown event. He did win 3 National Driving Titles. And over 17,000 races along the way. Some guys just aren't perceived that way.
You and I both go back to Carmine. Didn't go near Grand Circuit. I remember some moments like Never Wrong winning a Cane Pace elim, a Levy and a Sheppard, he never won significant races. Tried Chicago - that didn't work. Never ventured to jersey despite his brother being very connected there. Plus, as a horseman, Carmine couldn't train a ball to roll down hill. Of course, he won 7,500 races in NY Metro in an era when that was HUGE and that got him in the HOF! Point is you dont HAVE to be a Grand Circuit force. Yes Carmine did it on a big stage, but back in the day Chicago mattered too. I have no personal bias where Carmine is concerned, In fact, I was part of a group that owned horses in his stable. Jack Tashjian, then Bobby Siegelman days.
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To be fair I don’t think Palone should be in HOF either. He never could play with the best. That should be main criteria for HOF
I am not the biggest Dave Palone fan either, but I have to relent at 20,000 wins.
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I also never got the Cat Manzi thing either.
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I acknowledged Webster won those races with 3 world champions. I think he suffered because of the race fixing scandals of the 70s. Given what you say, why else didn't they put him in? I M O, Herve, Carmine, Gilmour, Insko and Fontaine were on a higher plane than Webster. Maybe that's why they're in. He isn't.It is true that Tony only won a Jugette, a Woodrow Wilson and a Breeder's Crown event. He did win 3 National Driving Titles. And over 17,000 races along the way. Some guys just aren't perceived that way.
You and I both go back to Carmine. Didn't go near Grand Circuit. I remember some moments like Never Wrong winning a Cane Pace elim, a Levy and a Sheppard, he never won significant races. Tried Chicago - that didn't work. Never ventured to jersey despite his brother being very connected there. Plus, as a horseman, Carmine couldn't train a ball to roll down hill. Of course, he won 7,500 races in NY Metro in an era when that was HUGE and that got him in the HOF! Point is you dont HAVE to be a Grand Circuit force. Yes Carmine did it on a big stage, but back in the day Chicago mattered too. I have no personal bias where Carmine is concerned, In fact, I was part of a group that owned horses in his stable. Jack Tashjian, then Bobby Siegelman days.
First of all, Carmine did leave NY and tried The Meadowlands. In fact, he made the first Meadowlands commercial in 1976 where he drove a horse across the GW Bridge signifying that he was moving to NJ. He didn't do too well and eventually went back to NY but later, Robbie Siegelman started training his horses and they ended up back at M1. Barn 6B. I was in 6C. Carmine was past his prime by then.
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i know. Like he said at the time. Going back to NY to stay. Evening Choice, Columbia Lee were a couple of mine. partners were 2 Greek guys.
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Carmine "the horseman", tried to be a smart ass with me when he took the lines, looked at the horse and said, "I don't drive horses with shit towels". I said, "would you prefer to drive him with out one". i didn't put him down, judges ssigned him without contacting me when my guy got days.
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Carmine "the horseman", tried to be a smart ass with me when he took the lines, looked at the horse and said, "I don't drive horses with shit towels". I said, "would you prefer to drive him with out one". i didn't put him down, judges ssigned him without contacting me when my guy got days.
He was a douchebag. His son Eric is a good guy though.
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tmbz1 tmbz1Eric A. and Corey Callahan would be a toss up for nicest guy in racing. Honorable mention would go to Jimmy Meittinis. on a side note, i wonder how many times you and I have been in a paddock or grandstand together over the years.....
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tmbz1 tmbz1Eric A. and Corey Callahan would be a toss up for nicest guy in racing. Honorable mention would go to Jimmy Meittinis. on a side note, i wonder how many times you and I have been in a paddock or grandstand together over the years.....
Jimmy used to have a real nice Oldsmobile 442. I think it ended up getting stolen.
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Welcome to the wonderful world of harness racing. Top guys ( drivers ) at almost all tracks pulled the same shit. Reason you don't hear about it today is, as you know, all top catch drivers don't train or maintain a stable anymore. They don't need to, to make a living. otherwise it would still be going on.
It still goes on st Hoosier. Trace will tell Tyler George who to claim and act like he had nothing to do with it.
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tmbz1 tmbz1Eric A. and Corey Callahan would be a toss up for nicest guy in racing. Honorable mention would go to Jimmy Meittinis. on a side note, i wonder how many times you and I have been in a paddock or grandstand together over the years.....
Meittinis may be a great guy but I witnessed him butchering more drives at Pompano than a lot of other guys there.
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Still he used to win at the Big M with enough frequency to be "betable" I used to catch him week in and week out on Misfit for Bruce Saunders. He also did very well with a good 3 year old for a good outfit whose name escapes me. Point is he got live drives from good trainers there. Crazy at may sound, Big M heyday - Choice between betting Jimmy Metteinis or Ed Lohmeyer strictly as a driver, I am going with Jimmy every time all things being equal. And eddie is going in the HOF next year. Relax guy, I am not saying Jimmy belongs in the HOF. Just making an ironic comparison.
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This doesn’t surprise me. Horses for courses, drivers for courses may have been in play. I used to bet Jim M at Pompano at first because his reputation was good up north. But time and again I was disappointed and poorer. He just didn’t seem to have a good feel for this 5/8 track.
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May well have been. i cant argue and wouldn't with your first hand experiences. I am sure Jimmy carried no weight down there at all as his name could up here and that cabal in pompano was very difficult to crack. very corrupt there. many prior suspended sleazy types. You know who.