HORSEPLOP.COM
General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Fuguzzi on October 28, 2023, 11:56:40 PM
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When all is said and done the night belongs to Svanstedt, Pelling, Burke and Takter. Congrats to all! Tonight was thoroughly enjoyable!
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no melander???
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When people say dumb shit like Melander is heading back to Sweden "with his tail between his legs" I call them out. It is rubbish.
His barn definitely tailed off second half of the season, but he will still earn 4.5 million this year in just over 400 starts. that puts him top 10 among his peers.
My point was, 3 year olds and up, all roads still go through the Big 4.
People were on here actually predicting Stefano blah, blah, blah would beat Confederate and so on
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When people say dumb shit like Melander is heading back to Sweden "with his tail between his legs" I call them out. It is rubbish.
His barn definitely tailed off second half of the season, but he will still earn 4.5 million this year in just over 400 starts. that puts him top 10 among his peers.
My point was, 3 year olds and up, all roads still go through the Big 4.
People were on here actually predicting Stefano blah, blah, blah would beat Confederate and so on
Idk I still think its happening right in front of your eyes.
You have no idea how much money went into that 4 million
He's had at least 4 600ks make less than 100k
And has at least 15 he paid 200k for that have made less than a third of it back.
Name any horse he has that's going well.
I can name you 10 400k horses he's had that never made 30k on thr track the last 3 years.
Name ANY trainer with that much wasted capital.
Now we are talking real numbers. Go ahead
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i cant argue with you purple, facts are facts
he has been given all the horsepower and not delivered of late
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I agree with his completely lackluster performance over all this year. As far as another trainer given the resources and failing to deliver, I can only offer up Erv Miller from what people say on here. I dont really care what owners spend and don't follow the whole breeding/yearling sales routine very closely. This forum is my main source of info on that topic.
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Pelling, he won one BC under cloudy ownership activities
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Ake and Sarah definitely know what they are doing! Not only do they race well but they also look like the opitame of the perfect race horse! The methods that they employ result in classy looking specimens as well! tmbz1
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I have never in my life seen a barn where every horse he puts on the track is rigged as simply or balanced as perfectly as ake's. They go all day long, are so beautiful and muscled and just float effortlessly. Their individual leg action is flawless. He now dwarfs all over the great European and a few domestic trainers and I have seen them all. Wins a lot of races in the bike too for a guy "that can't drive" That's how great his stock is.
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Four Breeders Crowns and 2 seconds over the weekend. The week before Nine in a row grade 2 stakes races at Pocono. Doesn't matter if he drives or not, they are all fit and can leave the gate for position. No one else like him.
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I have never in my life seen a barn where every horse he puts on the track is rigged as simply or balanced as perfectly as ake's. They go all day long, are so beautiful and muscled and just float effortlessly. Their individual leg action is flawless. He now dwarfs all over the great European and a few domestic trainers and I have seen them all. Wins a lot of races in the bike too for a guy "that can't drive" That's how great his stock is.
On top of all of that, all his horses can be bet from two year olds on up, no matter if it is their first start of the year or not, because he puts his horses on the track ready to win. He trains them hard and they are ready when they hit the track. Breaking stride...... almost never, including his two years olds. He has had a couple of driving gaffs over the years, but is more than capable and have not hesitated to bet a horse because he is driving.
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tmbz1 and once in a while you get a little better price like last night 11.wp
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The cream of the crop is Ron Burke. His horses have earned 25 million this year and he does it with pacers and trotters, young and old and now he is winning big stakes with homebreds. He isn't at Lexington and Harrisburg bidding 300K or more for a yearling like Takter, Svanstadt, Toscano and others are. His operation is amazing.
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The cream of the crop is Ron Burke. His horses have earned 25 million this year and he does it with pacers and trotters, young and old and now he is winning big stakes with homebreds. He isn't at Lexington and Harrisburg bidding 300K or more for a yearling like Takter, Svanstadt, Toscano and others are. His operation is amazing.
Burke bought 13 at Lexington with an average price of $97k. He has had his share of high priced yearlings. Usually start with over 80 every year. Besides the 150+ race horses in his barns
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Burke bought 13 at Lexington with an average price of $97k. He has had his share of high priced yearlings. Usually start with over 80 every year. Besides the 150+ race horses in his barns
Thanks for the info.
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I have never in my life seen a barn where every horse he puts on the track is rigged as simply or balanced as perfectly as ake's. They go all day long, are so beautiful and muscled and just float effortlessly. Their individual leg action is flawless. He now dwarfs all over the great European and a few domestic trainers and I have seen them all. Wins a lot of races in the bike too for a guy "that can't drive" That's how great his stock is.
Totally agree--remember Takter first saw Akes operation in Sweden and went back to USA and designed his operation to be similar to Ake--Ake is the best trainer ATM and has been at the top both here and in Sweden for Decades--- with Ron Burke a close second IMHO.
Biggest disappointment this year has been Alagna--with the amount of money hes spent--his owners have to be losing millions.. I hope he has better luck next year-for his sake.
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Totally agree--remember Takter first saw Akes operation in Sweden and went back to USA and designed his operation to be similar to Ake--Ake is the best trainer ATM and has been at the top both here and in Sweden for Decades--- with Ron Burke a close second IMHO.
Biggest disappointment this year has been Alagna--with the amount of money hes spent--his owners have to be losing millions.. I hope he has better luck next year-for his sake.
Like I have posted before, I'll take Burke's bank account over Svanstedt's. People forget, Burke owns a piece of almost every horse he trains and EVERY year except for the pandemic, his barn has earned over 20 million. NOBODY else comes close.
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ok burke earns the most but also has the most horses. i dont think that 20mil+ is all profit. his bills must be very high. id bet his pure profit isnt much better then some of the others
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net/net he might be good for 1.5 million and that's nothing to sneeze at but represents maybe 8% which is far lower than in most businesses. If anyone knows more, please add to the convo concerning Burke's profits
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So the cream of the crop is not stupid Amish and hicks?
Who'da guessed that?
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So the cream of the crop is not stupid Amish and hicks?
Who'da guessed that?
Coach S would've won last night?
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but Andy did win one, fluke
Weak field for Mare B.C, alot of tired ones in there
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net/net he might be good for 1.5 million and that's nothing to sneeze at but represents maybe 8% which is far lower than in most businesses. If anyone knows more, please add to the convo concerning Burke's profits
Your math is so flawed, it's funny. How the fuck can Burke only be at 8% when he automatically gets 5% as trainer. Are you telling me he is only accumulating an additional 3% when he owns a piece of just about every horse he races. Try again.
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Do you understand what net/net means, mike? In business that is final bottom line profit after everything and taxes. Most businesses run around 12% net/net.
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If Burke is netting out more than 2M a year for himself, he is doing very well, but with all the ways to leak cash and what must be astronomical expenses, I would be shocked if it was any more than that. Try using your own bottom line as an example formuli.
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Remember also, he is self employed so he is paying double SS and SUI and Fica - 15% instead of 7.5%.
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Do you understand what net/net means, mike? In business that is final bottom line profit after everything and taxes. Most businesses run around 12% net/net.
I think you need to take a few accounting classes, as you are foolishly wrong about net net. Maybe you were drinking?
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I have been sleeping with an accountant for almost 30 years. You are such an insulting prick, there is no point talking to you further. Net/net profit is a legitimate term. maybe someone else who understands the concept I am talking about will chime in and try to explain it to you. I am finished.
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He is the simple math. Burke 300 horses for 25M. Ake 75 horses for 9M. Burkes expenses are 4x Ake’s. Ake day rate is almost double what Burke charges
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If you are trying to tell us that it is your guess, ake nets out more money, I strongly agree with you and would rather be him.
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I have been sleeping with an accountant for almost 30 years. You are such an insulting prick, there is no point talking to you further. Net/net profit is a legitimate term. maybe someone else who understands the concept I am talking about will chime in and try to explain it to you. I am finished.
Well him and you are both fools. There are double and triple net leases, there is net profit or net income but there isn't net/net profit or net/net income.
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"net/net" in business is defined as "the ultimate" bottom line profit ( if any ) after obvious and not so obvious, deductions and subtractions have been taken. This term is used in P/L and market capitalization. In laymen's terms think of it as what a company or in this case, an individual, REALLY makes.
Some call income after all revisions have been done and there can be no more.
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"net/net" in business is defined as "the ultimate" bottom line profit ( if any ) after obvious and not so obvious, deductions and subtractions have been taken. This term is used in P/L and market capitalization. In laymen's terms think of it as what a company or in this case, an individual, REALLY makes.
Some call income after all revisions have been done and there can be no more.
Try again. I have all day.
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Laymen's logic tells me that Burke is probably good for around 2 Million per year free and clear in his pocket after EVERYTHING. Maybe I am wrong and he is doing better, But who really cares. His consistency is truly remarkable.
It's not like he is gonna come on here and tell us.
If he can squeeze out more profit, good for him, but expenses continue to skyrocket and there are so many ways to bleed cash in this business.
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Try again. I have all day.
Then do some research or spend time with your Burke purchase with the trapped or frozen epi or windpipe or whatever the fuck it is that is sidelining him.
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Then do some research or spend time with your Burke purchase with the trapped or frozen epi or windpipe or whatever the fuck it is that is sidelining him.
Based on Burkes 25 million in purses won this year...5% trainer is 1,250.000....He has 200 horses in training. He must be paid at least $15 per day on each which over 1 year comes to 1.1 million. He owns at least 20% of the horses racing and earning purses. That comes to 5 million. You're a fool if you think he is only making 2 million per year.
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Even if your figures are 100% accurate, that is pretax income and he still has 7.5 % SUI, SS, and Fica costs for his people and double that for himself. Insurance costs must be factored in too. Hard to imagine he can net out more that a couple million for himself t year's end and that would be doing very well.
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Based on Burkes 25 million in purses won this year...5% trainer is 1,250.000....He has 200 horses in training. He must be paid at least $15 per day on each which over 1 year comes to 1.1 million. He owns at least 20% of the horses racing and earning purses. That comes to 5 million. You're a fool if you think he is only making 2 million per year.
How do you know he owns 20% of the ones he is listed as owner on? If the number is 20% that also drops the amount he is billing out. Usually has closer to 300 after Harrisburg last 7-8 years. We calculated out about what his expenses are a few years ago. Break even is about 13 million. That would be if he owned 100% of all horses. I would love to have just what he spends on travel each year.
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(I went with Mike's numbers to avoid prolonging the argument, though we know they cant be 100% accurate).
I still feel that after everything Ron would be doing very well if kept 2 million free and clear for himself. I respect his unparalleled success and business model and if can do better than 30 - 40k free and clear for himself weekly, good for him.
Do you agree stan? Any other opinions about Burke's net/net?
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How do you know he owns 20% of the ones he is listed as owner on? If the number is 20% that also drops the amount he is billing out. Usually has closer to 300 after Harrisburg last 7-8 years. We calculated out about what his expenses are a few years ago. Break even is about 13 million. That would be if he owned 100% of all horses. I would love to have just what he spends on travel each year.
Logic tells me that if he wasn't raking it in, why would he continue with such a huge number of horses? Posting that he actually has 300 horses only adds to his bankroll. If break even is 13 million, he is doing quite well. Purses over 20 million 9 out of the last 10 years with 17 million in the pandemic year. I also believe he retained a percentage of Sweet Lou's breeding income.
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you know why, Mike. Honestly, as you must have heard, there is such a thing as "drowning in success" or in this case excess. I am not saying he is drowning, don't take it that way. What I mean is how could he possibly scale back his operation at this point? He has so many people and things depending on him and he has obviously found a way to maintain the largest horse training operation ever with success, incredible consistency and we imagine good profitability, that it would be next to impossible for him to operate any other way and he doesn't seem to need to, so more power to him. I am truly in awe of the numbers he produces. he seems to maintain fluid calm in a business that features "choppy waters".
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(I went with Mike's numbers to avoid prolonging the argument, though we know they cant be 100% accurate).
I still feel that after everything Ron would be doing very well if kept 2 million free and clear for himself. I respect his unparalleled success and business model and if can do better than 30 - 40k free and clear for himself weekly, good for him.
Do you agree stan? Any other opinions about Burke's net/net?
I agree. Don’t forget he is still employing mom and dad. Mom does the books dad is an advisor. He also has 2 farms tha that require upkeep and taxes. Don’t know how many free stalls he has At Hoosier but only allowed 30 at The Meadows. So the rest he is paying stall rent on besides all the other expenses
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I personally wouldn’t want the headache involved with trying to find good help for 75. Let alone 300. Ake and Sarah work 80+ hours a week. Burke I seem to see him show up at just about every track at some point.
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I agree. Don’t forget he is still employing mom and dad. Mom does the books dad is an advisor. He also has 2 farms tha that require upkeep and taxes. Don’t know how many free stalls he has At Hoosier but only allowed 30 at The Meadows. So the rest he is paying stall rent on besides all the other expenses
I knew about the Mom. Maybe she does some "good home cooking". good points about stall rent. Something I never had to deal with, TG!
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I never saw so many people concerned how much money someone else is making. The bottom line to me is if Burke isn’t making a reasonable profit everyone else should just get out of the business. With his leverage he should be getting the best deals on everything. I would be surprised if he didn’t have a sharp tax accountant. He should be able to draw some of the best help assuming he is offering good pay and benefits, that most other trainers cannot. He may be offering some form of profit sharing to his best second trainers. I could go on and on but if he is a good businessman believe me no one needs to throw him a benefit.
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I never saw so many people concerned how much money someone else is making. The bottom line to me is if Burke isn’t making a reasonable profit everyone else should just get out of the business. With his leverage he should be getting the best deals on everything. I would be surprised if he didn’t have a sharp tax accountant. He should be able to draw some of the best help assuming he is offering good pay and benefits, that most other trainers cannot. He may be offering some form of profit sharing to his best second trainers. I could go on and on but if he is a good businessman believe me no one needs to throw him a benefit.
Always remember EGO trumps profit in a lot of cases. Hopefully soon someone apply the Baffert rulings to him.
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I would imagine if Burke were truly smart as I think he is, given the size of his operation and the number of people depending on him and vice/versa, he took advantage of PPP money during the Covid "shutdown"
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I have a business owner friend. He called me around 3 years ago telling me he received $55,000 in PPP money because his accountant applied for him. He had no idea why he received it but didn’t look the government gift horse in the mouth. So if Burke’s people applied for PPP $$ he too probably received it too. As Don King used to say,” Only in America”
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Your friend must have at some point given his accountant authorization as an agent for him to make such application. He probably forgot or didn't realize this. Otherwise they could both end up in hot water. My wife has been an accountant for over 30 years, so I ran the question by her. In many ways, Theo, this was one of the smartest things government did during Covid, the free money to the masses was not.
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guys, burke doesnt pay all those expenses, the owners do after he bills out
just like all trainers
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I think it is a fascinating subject to ponder just how much Ron keeps for himself "free and clear" after everything at the end of the year given the sheer scale and scope of his operation. personally, I believe he is very smart to own as much of as many horses as he can. Very hard to get rich on 5% and per day rates.
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I would imagine if Burke were truly smart as I think he is, given the size of his operation and the number of people depending on him and vice/versa, he took advantage of PPP money during the Covid "shutdown"
He got it twice. The link was posted on plop a while back.
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Long before me. He is truly the Wiseowl
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I have a business owner friend. He called me around 3 years ago telling me he received $55,000 in PPP money because his accountant applied for him. He had no idea why he received it but didn’t look the government gift horse in the mouth. So if Burke’s people applied for PPP $$ he too probably received it too. As Don King used to say,” Only in America”
He would have to show a significant decrease in revenues from 2020 to 2019. With the tracks being closed for quite a few months, I’m sure he would qualify.
The ERTC is even more wild. The govt is trillions in debt and they’re giving away billions.
Smh
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my wife talks about that all the time. So i combat her with horse stories.
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I know, no one here is capable of sucking their own dicks. So why tell a story so impossible???
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This one is going over my head GenX ??
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This one is going over my head GenX ??
Its OK not meant for you. Your a friend.
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You too. i didn't think it was for me, just couldn't connect it to the thread. I still can't LOL
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my wife talks about that all the time. So i combat her with horse stories.
Does your wife tell all of her "online allday buddies" about you as often as you go on about her?
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Only the BBCs
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I have a business owner friend. He called me around 3 years ago telling me he received $55,000 in PPP money because his accountant applied for him. He had no idea why he received it but didn’t look the government gift horse in the mouth. So if Burke’s people applied for PPP $$ he too probably received it too. As Don King used to say,” Only in America”
There is a very successful horseman who set up about 6 LLCs and got $ for all of them and went on an equine shopping spree.
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Only the BBCs
LOL
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There is a very successful horseman who set up about 6 LLCs and got $ for all of them and went on an equine shopping spree.
Who would that be?? There is a website where we can look up anyone that got money