HORSEPLOP.COM
General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: rainman2 on December 06, 2023, 10:55:36 PM
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more owners or more bettors?
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Neither. Just a good clean up.
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Enema
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more owners or more bettors?
a defined focus.
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Like every other major sport it needs a Commissioner that overseas everything!
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Let’s see the people in harness racing have punched the betting fans in the face like one thousand times. Now you want to know what will bring these fans back to trust the sport that earns no trust? That ship has left the port.
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Like every other major sport it needs a Commissioner that overseas everything!
This would require the game to get out from under the purview of the states while setting up a league or leagues. Do-able if the gambling side moved from parimutual to the sportsbooks, putting the COUPLING with slots at risk. Maybe a phase out stage over the course of some years. A logical starting point would be with the Hamb-Society at the helm.
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Plain and simple ! Stop the the god damn cheating ! Trainers get positives and a slap on the wrist , ban these cheating scumbags for 1 year , then next positive 2 years. Horse isnt allowed to ran either for 3 months or so. Hit them in the wallet. Trainer gets no training bill and owner gets no purse money. Years and years ago there were couple thousand people at the track on a Saturday night. Lucky to have couple hundred now on a saturday night. To late, you’ve cut your own throat. No one blame but yourselves .
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Harness racing is two components -- the industry and the sport. The harness racing INDUSTRY (inside our industry) needs the same thing this country needs -- to eliminate the devisiveness, the combativeness, the critical, confrontational, the have be right and make the other side wrong mentality. This will allow HISA to be most efficient and effective, because there will be bumps in the road. Success, cleaning up an industry takes place first from inside. It's an inside first job. Success in cleaning up an industry -- is not a destination -- it's a journey. After that, the industry needs a lot more. Go through the first door first, then you can see and look at the second. This has to occur for the industry to rid itself of the "mother wart" issue -- and that is cheating. All cheating.
That which brings us together is far greater, bigger, and stronger, than that which divides us.
The SPORT needs the INDUSTRY to do the above first. After that, the SPORT too needs a lot more. If you want or expect harness racing to be what it once was -- not in stature, but in form, substance, product, etc. -- then you are either foolish, naive, uneducated, or completely oblivious to the change we have seen, not just in a sport, but in the entire world.
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It needs fans to start. Go on the street and ask 10 random people if they know what harness racing is. Over under is 1 who knows what it is IMO.
Perhaps a young owner with a ton of social media clout and money to burn like Mr Beast could give it a jumpstart as millions and millions of young people watch his every move.
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don't overlook the lack of new young trainers
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No casinos, no internet, no sports betting, no fantasy leagues, no cable television....in other words....a time machine, unfortunately. It's the "greatest" sport, because an 18-year old can compete against an 85-year old.
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It's nothing but old men.
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Nothing can be done. Tracks, save your money in trying to promote.
The new fan who goes to the races, bets a horse, is excited the horse gets to the front, but wonders why his driver grabs up to let another horse go, then the driver of the other horse lets another horse go and suddenly the horse that they bet is 3rd on the rail locked in, no room in the stretch and finishes 6th.
OH and try to explain to a new fan why a driver/trainer combo doesn't want to win a NW2 class, although the horse is seconds faster than the competition.
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It's nothing but old men.
I guess you missed the Saratoga women:
Melissa Beckwith
Lisa Z.
Megan Reynolds
Jackie Greene
Amanda Kelly
Linda Toscano
Can others please add some names?
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Harness racing needs a good purge. Perhaps a sleeve of delcolax and a big colon blow out.
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In my opinion, the challenge of handicapping and making correct decisions in betting is what makes racing (both harness and tbreds) great. There is so little emphasis placed on explaining how to handicap, that I can't imagine any young fan "getting" what's so exciting about the sport. In the old days, Sports Eye did a fantastic job at turning each race into a story. I think track programs should include much more written, subjective discussions of the races. There are a million other things, but if you never learn to handicap, you'll never become a real, regular fan.
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Problem is for the entertainment gambling $ it is boring and to long drawn out. Gamblers want fast action and a lot of it quickly. Win or loss they want it fast , so they can get to the next bet
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Problem is for the entertainment gambling $ it is boring and to long drawn out. Gamblers want fast action and a lot of it quickly. Win or loss they want it fast , so they can get to the next bet
Then how about in-race wagering like they have in-game wagering. Allowing the odds to be changed from the start to the 1/4’ from the 1/4 to the 1/2, from the 1/2 to the 3/4’s and that’s it. The window locks at 3/4’s pole. That would give gamblers fast action.
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You can't get much faster than Quarter Horse racing, a few 440 yards in 20 seconds. Some races shorter and faster. Yet, they are regional in population.
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Problem is for the entertainment gambling $ it is boring and to long drawn out. Gamblers want fast action and a lot of it quickly. Win or loss they want it fast , so they can get to the next bet
Like a three or four game parlay that takes the entire weekend to win or lose?
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2 things the younger set dont like. Time between races and 1/2 mile, line them up and sit racing.
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I guess you missed the Saratoga women:
Melissa Beckwith
Lisa Z.
Megan Reynolds
Jackie Greene
Amanda Kelly
I was referring to the bettors (patrons).
Linda Toscano
Can others please add some names?
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Jackie Ingrassia
Casie Coleman
Susie Kerwood
Brandy Wine
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Problem is for the entertainment gambling $ it is boring and to long drawn out. Gamblers want fast action and a lot of it quickly. Win or loss they want it fast , so they can get to the next bet
ENTERTAINMENT - look at any other big-time sports. It's non-stop action .... between innings, at halftime, my glory - there's plenty going on. It's time to resurrect the old boxing round cards. Trax could have beautiful bathing suit gals walk along holding a race # placard to show what race is coming up. WAIT? can you even say that out loud in this day and age?
Actually, same cultural cluster reason that a track can't have a LADIES NITE promotion.
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Let’s see the people in harness racing have punched the betting fans in the face like one thousand times. Now you want to know what will bring these fans back to trust the sport that earns no trust? That ship has left the port.
The original post completely missed the answer. They didn't even include it.
Owners? Fans? that is all they posited.
This person's response was well on the way to the answer.
NEW PARTICIPANTS.
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I've seen 2 pages of ideas that have a few gr8 points. Without any implementation there's no way to sort out the good from the bad. The one thing I am positive about is that unless the changes are made,nothing will improve!! How can we get a few of these things implemented ? Who can or will get the ball rolling towards a revamped product?????
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Bring a new person to the track
race 1, no movement, boring race.
wait 25 minutes
race 2, no movement, boring race
Now unless the new person has a mental deficiency, they will know within two races, that if they are not near the front, they will probably lose.
** Now the kicker **
can you get them to stick around for race 3 tmbz1
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As long as the slot $$ keeps flowing, no one will do anything. Happy with status quo, and by the time it's taken away[and it will be] it'll be too late.
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The racing industry does a horrendous job of educating its potential audience of the what and how that goes into making the races. As a person who spent most of their adult life in the business, nothing was more aggravating than hearing a novice patron say "all these races are fixed". Product placement wouldnt hurt anything either that isnt about juicing or "fixed". Billions had a story line about Axe being someone who loved the "trotters"....yeah, that worked our well.
Another thing without question is the HISA bs coming. This will only make things worse. I was never a "Juice guy: when training my own but I used whatever I could under the rules. Well, guess what, HISA will make that gap even larger. Remember what "Tiger proofing" the golf courses was meant to do? It only gave him more advantage.
I wont even bring up the intertrack split issue that is truly THE paramount problem. Im sure many of the games greats will continue to essentially force out the little guys. There's just no way to compete. Just my 2 cents.
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The need starts and ends with a complete overhaul in the price to gamble on racing (both breeds) to something that comes close to a competition with all other forms of legal gambling
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According to posters here named Jackie Mo and Bitter Truth, handle is irrelevent so if you believe them, then harness racing doesn't need to care about gamblers.
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No , what we said was that currently handle is irrelevant as far as 'purses' go. Obviously a higher handle offers better opportunities for placing a larger wager and/or payoffs.
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To get rid of the USTA, H. Society, & all the executives who do nothing...but collect checks.
Real drug testing with consequences. All cheaters treating the same...big or small.
Drivers to be less friendly & race the horses.
The fat lady is warming up.
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No , what we said was that currently handle is irrelevant as far as 'purses' go. Obviously a higher handle offers better opportunities for placing a larger wager and/or payoffs.
Once again, spoken like a true non horsemen. If handle is irrelevant as far as purses are concerned, then I vote to get rid of gambling on horses and just race for purses. Gamblers can go find something else to bet on and casinos can continue to give the horsemen purse money.
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No , what we said was that currently handle is irrelevant as far as 'purses' go. Obviously a higher handle offers better opportunities for placing a larger wager and/or payoffs.
This makes no sense.
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This makes no sense.
Agreed. It might make sense to the author hvc.1 hvc.1 hvc.1
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Competition is not what it used to be for the entertainment dollar. Tracks have to become more creative like incorporating concerts and things of that nature to the track.
Can you imagine how many degenerate gamblers would leave their seats at Pocono or Yonkers for a wet T-shirt contest/bikini contest that actually paid for the top 5 held between races at the winners circle or in the winter in a section of the stands? If you had a contest between each race they would be hanging around the track watching racing.
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Racing is a gambling game. There will never be a concert or naked women contest that will help.
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Racing is a gambling game. There will never be a concert or naked women contest that will help.
Can’t hurt you have to try something especially a venue like the Meadowlands the vender’s are starving there.
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maybe not but there has been and will be drag queens at the big m so all should be good
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also once again just to educate some of you
if in handouts you are referring to what the casinos pay to horseman that is incorrect wording
this is a rebate that the casino pay for being allowed to open on the sites of harness tracks and use their gambling license
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Can’t hurt you have to try something especially a venue like the Meadowlands the vender’s are starving there.
The Meadowlands tries and has tried all that stuff for a long time. They still need welfare despite a sportsbook cause its all failed. Fix the gambling side is the only thing anyone should consider.
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More drag shows will only support the hot dog vendors.
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Competition is not what it used to be for the entertainment dollar. Tracks have to become more creative like incorporating concerts and things of that nature to the track.
Can you imagine how many degenerate gamblers would leave their seats at Pocono or Yonkers for a wet T-shirt contest/bikini contest that actually paid for the top 5 held between races at the winners circle or in the winter in a section of the stands? If you had a contest between each race they would be hanging around the track watching racing.
What about Lance and his array of friends? How do you entertain them??
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Racing is a gambling game. There will never be a concert or naked women contest that will help.
Apparently you didn't know John Manzi.
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Apparently you didn't know John Manzi.
OMG how can I forget that Mike! He was great for Monti.
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also once again just to educate some of you
if in handouts you are referring to what the casinos pay to horseman that is incorrect wording
this is a rebate that the casino pay for being allowed to open on the sites of harness tracks and use their gambling license
Correct but don't try to tell that to knowitalls like Jackie Mo and Bitter Truth.
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What about Lance and his array of friends? How do you entertain them??
Easy, bringing some transvestites lol.
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OMG how can I forget that Mike! He was great for Monti.
tmbz1 tmbz1
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If decoupling was so easy to achieve, every casino would be doing it.
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"In Pennsylvania, Gov. Tom Wolf is once again proposing to divert $199 million a year from slot-financed purses to provide higher-education scholarships for 20,000 students in a state with a crushing college debt load and high tuitions."
"Wolf’s agriculture secretary, Russell Redding, whose agency oversees the state’s three thoroughbred and three harness tracks, is impatient with that lament. “After a $3 billion investment, racing still isn’t stable. Why should we continue to invest?” he said in a recent interview."
[/quote
How did Wolf make out with that?? Horse racing still gets there fees and he is unemployed
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1) get these race cards done at 3 hours max
2)sorry but anything under a $! tri should be gone. rarely ever see big payouts
3)reduce number of multi race bets. the less options the bigger the pool
4)have race secretaries actually look at the races and use most competitve races in pic 4,daily double
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Decoupling is a separate issue. What PA has tried to do is use the tax on slots to pay for roads, bridges, and schools instead of racing so they do not need to increase taxes on the public.
I think what you and others fail to understand is the individual states and the individual casinos are not the be all end all decider of how things go down. Hypothetically, a racetrack can, when the contract between them and the sponsoring casino is up, not renew their joint venture and guess what happens? That casino has to shut down, as it can't operate without the shared usage gambling license that the RACETRACK/HORSEMEN own. Now yes, the probability of a racetrack severing ties with a casino may be slim but who knows? There are some tracks that are probably doing enough business to actually remain solvent without a casino. Northfield, Monticello and possibly Dover can probably go it alone. The point being that states need to not get too greedy when trying to divert money from the horsemen's coffers or they may force the hand of the horsemen to sever ties with the casino thus eliminating that tax.
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PUT ALL THE BONGIORNO'S IN JAIL !!!!!!!!
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PUT ALL THE BONGIORNO'S IN JAIL !!!!!!!!
Since you’re not shy, who else???
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That is not how it works in PA. The horse racing development fund is a tax on slots play. The government decides what the money is used for. PA has a bunch of stand alone casinos and the harness tracks are owned by the casino companies. PA has already tried to divert the money. They just need a few more votes in the legislature.
The actual slots legislation says the money goes to the Agriculture Department to fund the horse racing sector in the state The whole law would have to be rewritten. Which is why it hasn’t changed and the few that tried to steal the money all lost their reelection. The fool that wrote that opinion piece only used his narrative about out of state ownership. Never mentioned how much money from around the world flows into PA at the yearling sale
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If you actually live in PA and want lower taxes maybe you should think about voting against the state congress that gives themselves a 7.5% raise pretty much every year because of the inflation the Dumbacrates keep causing
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cmon guys dont buy all this political bullshit
if politicians knew how to properly run their states it would not be an issue
they mismanage and piss away billions
but somehow trying to take money from harness racing is the savior
and by the way pa doesn't need another 20,000 students to go to school and get some bullshit degree that does them no good
send them to trade school to be a useful part of the economy
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That is not how it works in PA. The horse racing development fund is a tax on slots play. The government decides what the money is used for. PA has a bunch of stand alone casinos and the harness tracks are owned by the casino companies. PA has already tried to divert the money. They just need a few more votes in the legislature.
At Pocono Downs, I don't think Mohegan Sun owns the race related property such as the track and the paddock and they don't own the gambling license which is why they can't dump racing.
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At Pocono Downs, I don't think Mohegan Sun owns the race related property such as the track and the paddock and they don't own the gambling license which is why they can't dump racing.
I don't think that is correct. I believe Mohegan
Sun bought the track from Penn National in 2005 for $280 Million.
https://www.casinocitytimes.com/news/article/mohegan-sun-reports-mixed-results-150362
(8th, or so, bullet point)
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That is not how it works in PA. The horse racing development fund is a tax on slots play. The government decides what the money is used for. PA has a bunch of stand alone casinos and the harness tracks are owned by the casino companies. PA has already tried to divert the money. They just need a few more votes in the legislature.
The newer stand alone casinos came later on and they all had to pay a huge licensing fee. If I remember right it was 100 million up front to even get started
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The newer stand alone casinos came later on and they all had to pay a huge licensing fee. If I remember right it was 100 million up front to even get started
Look what New York States charges for licensing fees!! What a bargain!!
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I don't think that is correct. I believe Mohegan
Sun bought the track from Penn National in 2005 for $280 Million.
https://www.casinocitytimes.com/news/article/mohegan-sun-reports-mixed-results-150362
(8th, or so, bullet point)
Maybe I got it wrong but the PHHA told me that Mohegan Sun owns everything but the actual track, paddock and gaming license. The grandstand, parking lot and surrounding property are all owned by Mohegan Sun.
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Maybe I got it wrong but the PHHA told me that Mohegan Sun owns everything but the actual track, paddock and gaming license. The grandstand, parking lot and surrounding property are all owned by Mohegan Sun.
That sounds about right