HORSEPLOP.COM
General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Miguel_Sanchez on September 15, 2024, 07:22:20 PM
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Not so super anymore!
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great horses get beat but this horse is nowhere near the best of all time
Muscle Hill
Mack Lobell
Sebastian K
Atlanta
Manchego
Jiggy Jog
all would eat Karl's lunch in the stretch...karl is a very very good horse but they have babied him and he is avoiding alot of the big races and was going to beat here by Secret Agent Man in the stretch if he didnt blow up
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Not so super anymore!
Will there be excuse(s) from the horseplop faithful or ranting, raving, and whining?
Can't wait to find out!
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great horses get beat but this horse is nowhere near the best of all time
Muscle Hill
Mack Lobell
Sebastian K
Atlanta
Manchego
Jiggy Jog
all would eat Karl's lunch in the stretch...karl is a very very good horse but they have babied him and he is avoiding alot of the big races and was going to beat here by Secret Agent Man in the stretch if he didnt blow up
You forgot about twenty other trotters, but I get your point.
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great horses get beat but this horse is nowhere near the best of all time
Muscle Hill
Mack Lobell
Sebastian K
Atlanta
Manchego
Jiggy Jog
all would eat Karl's lunch in the stretch...karl is a very very good horse but they have babied him and he is avoiding alot of the big races and was going to beat here by Secret Agent Man in the stretch if he didnt blow up
Half of the horses you listed weren't as great as Karl at 3.
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This horse isn't in the top 20 greatest of all time. he races against no one and get beat by different horses each time. wait till kismet comes to lex and trots by him like he's tied to a post. kismet will absolutely jerk his bridle off the rest of the year.
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Half of the horses you listed weren't as great as Karl at 3.
Muscle Hill
Mack Lobell
Sebastian K
Atlanta
Manchego
Jiggy Jog
Your delusional - Muscle hill lost 1 race life - Mack Lobell beat everyone on EVERY size track - Sebastian K - so so Atlanta beat boys at 3 - Jiggy Jog just win against boys for a mil and has barely been beat last 3 yrs.
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Muscle Hill
Mack Lobell
Sebastian K
Atlanta
Manchego
Jiggy Jog
Your delusional - Muscle hill lost 1 race life - Mack Lobell beat everyone on EVERY size track - Sebastian K - so so Atlanta beat boys at 3 - Jiggy Jog just win against boys for a mil and has barely been beat last 3 yrs.
Once again, I said half of the horses listed were not as good as Karl at 3. Muscle Hill, Mack and Atlanta were. Sebastian, Manchego and Jiggy Jog were not.
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Well to be great he has to be better at 3 and he's not. Plain and simple he's good horse not great. I would take him for sure but he's not the next super horse super sire.
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Didn't watch the race but read the chart! Looks like a driver and a trip got the job done!
Looks like a combination of excuses as well as some ranting, raving, and crying on horseplop!
Can't wait for more comments/excuses/ranting/raving/whining!
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Well to be great he has to be better at 3 and he's not. Plain and simple he's good horse not great. I would take him for sure but he's not the next super horse super sire.
Right, I am sure millions were saying Rambling Willie was great when he was 3. I am sure millions were saying Foiled Again was great when he was 3. You have been bashing Takter and Karl since the beginning. He is lame, he will blow up when they ask him for speed, Takter is using OSPHOS bla bla bla. All he has done is earn 2 million in 21 starts with 18 wins, 2 places and 1 show.
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don't forget he has raced against a sub par crop of trotters and barely won 10 of those 18 wins. 9 wins he has a 6" head nod too. Let's just agree to put the * beside his numbers like Barry Bonds HR record.
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Looks like a combination of truthful reporting, as well as excuses/whining/crying/ranting/raving!
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I thought he was going to be great and trot 1:48 but not now. Highland Kismet would destroy him as of today.
Unless he is sick or a valid excuse.
TCI was cooked by Burke IMO and Karl does not look like he was earlier this year. This was not a great field.
Also racing every two weeks is not ideal unless there is a problem
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https://youtu.be/la0NPh-nIrM?si=5kf1h9rA145wjmI2
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Like we've seen many times before, this colt was light years ahead of the entire crop----except for TCI----as a 2yo. He "looks" like a man against boys, many lengths better than the rest, etc., and often it's very misleading. Then, like we've seen almost every single time, in this case, as a 3yo, the rest of the class, and some newcomers, simply got better, matured, and started to catch up to him, etc. Couple that with this colt having some problems, and next thing you know what visually appeared to be a super horse who some people will say is one of the greatest of all time, is not super at all and certainly not anywhere near a GOAT list. But, you can't take away from him what he has accomplished----regardless of luck, trip, weak crop/performance, and so forth. The trophies got handed to the connections and the checks clear, and that's what counts. Doesn't make him a GOAT, but still.
If you are going to label a horse as being one of GOAT then you can only judge them on what they've done to date, and the others on the list will be judged on what they did their entire career. Potential doesn't get you onto a GOAT list. Regardless, this colt has no business being on any GOAT list and won't appear on any expert's GOAT list. Go ask Bob Marks, or who you feel is qualified as an expert. Put this colt on a GOAT list and they'll laugh at you.
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Who has ever put Karl on a GOAT list? His history has yet to be written. Once again...Karl will be remembered as the greatest trotter of all time.
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Michelle is very easy to root against
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He had a perfect trip, left a little AND GIVEN A HOLE, .!!!! Very lucky to salvage third. Stud fee dropped $5,000 and if he doesn’t step up it isn’t going to be pretty.
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He had a perfect trip, left a little AND GIVEN A HOLE, .!!!! Very lucky to salvage third. Stud fee dropped $5,000 and if he doesn’t step up it isn’t going to be pretty.
5k? What did you think his stud fee would have been before this?
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Like we've seen many times before, this colt was light years ahead of the entire crop----except for TCI----as a 2yo. He "looks" like a man against boys, many lengths better than the rest, etc., and often it's very misleading. Then, like we've seen almost every single time, in this case, as a 3yo, the rest of the class, and some newcomers, simply got better, matured, and started to catch up to him, etc. Couple that with this colt having some problems, and next thing you know what visually appeared to be a super horse who some people will say is one of the greatest of all time, is not super at all and certainly not anywhere near a GOAT list. But, you can't take away from him what he has accomplished----regardless of luck, trip, weak crop/performance, and so forth. The trophies got handed to the connections and the checks clear, and that's what counts. Doesn't make him a GOAT, but still.
If you are going to label a horse as being one of GOAT then you can only judge them on what they've done to date, and the others on the list will be judged on what they did their entire career. Potential doesn't get you onto a GOAT list. Regardless, this colt has no business being on any GOAT list and won't appear on any expert's GOAT list. Go ask Bob Marks, or who you feel is qualified as an expert. Put this colt on a GOAT list and they'll laugh at you.
Very well put
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Who has ever put Karl on a GOAT list? His history has yet to be written. Once again...Karl will be remembered as the greatest trotter of all time.
His history better come quick because he has 4-maybe 5 starts left in his life!
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This horse isn't in the top 20 greatest of all time. he races against no one and get beat by different horses each time. wait till kismet comes to lex and trots by him like he's tied to a post. kismet will absolutely jerk his bridle off the rest of the year.
im pretty sure Muscle Hill, Mack Lobell, and Atlanta would regularly beat Karl. The other 3 as aged showed way more grit and determination than Karl has...did the 3yo f go as fast tonight as he did.
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Once again, I said half of the horses listed were not as good as Karl at 3. Muscle Hill, Mack and Atlanta were. Sebastian, Manchego and Jiggy Jog were not.
Karl has now been beaten by two run of the mill 3yos in Tony Adams and Dame Good Time
the 4 some of Atlanta, Manchego, Plunge Blue Chip and Phateosive would regular score wins over Karl
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Date night would beat Karl if she raced him
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do you really think we see Karl taking on Jiggy Jog in the TVG Series
so Karl is going to have what....2 starts at Red Mile and 2 at the Big M for BC and thats probably it.
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Why is this subject rehashed over and over again. He is a good horse, but will not be remembered as the GOAT except by people with no knowledge of the sport.. and yes I know his history isn't yet written.. but he is nowhere near greatest as a 3 year old. Peace Corps was 16 of 19 as a 3 year old and won the Kentucky Futurity,World trotting derby against the boys and the breeders crown. I loved Manchego and Atlanta but they are not as great as her.. Furthermore John Campbell who is the GOAT said the best horse he ever drove was Mack Lobell.
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Why is this subject rehashed over and over again. He is a good horse, but will not be remembered as the GOAT except by people with no knowledge of the sport.. and yes I know his history isn't yet written.. but he is nowhere near greatest as a 3 year old. Peace Corps was 16 of 19 as a 3 year old and won the Kentucky Futurity,World trotting derby against the boys and the breeders crown. I loved Manchego and Atlanta but they are not as great as her.. Furthermore John Campbell who is the GOAT said the best horse he ever drove was Mack Lobell.
FYI, both Peace Corps and Mack Lobell won big races on 1/2 mile and 5/8-mile tracks too!
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do you really think we see Karl taking on Jiggy Jog in the TVG Series
so Karl is going to have what....2 starts at Red Mile and 2 at the Big M for BC and thats probably it.
He's barely holding on against his own class. I can't imagine they'll want to race against elders. Jiggy Jog? Thanks for the laugh. LOL.
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5k? What did you think his stud fee would have been before this?
Of course it would have depended on the rest of his season. Had he won out $40 to $50,000. Right now he is just another very nice horse. Today he lost more value than he would gain with a BC win.
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He had a perfect trip, left a little AND GIVEN A HOLE, .!!!! Very lucky to salvage third. Stud fee dropped $5,000 and if he doesn’t step up it isn’t going to be pretty.
Karl finished second.
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Karl is not an all-time champ whatsoever. He is dominating his class and that should be respected but there were far better trotting champs than him.
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Who has ever put Karl on a GOAT list? His history has yet to be written. Once again...Karl will be remembered as the greatest trotter of all time.
The 'greatest' trotters of all time have to race over all 4 size ovals (1 mile-2 turns, 7/8 mile-2 turns, 5/8 mile-3 turns, and 1/2 mile-4 turns) not 2! Karl has NEVER raced on a 5/8-mile track and a 1/2-mile track! Please read it here on horseplop. More likely than not, Karl will not race on a 'smaller' track!
12 records
Track Code Race Date Race No. Coded Class Video Formats * **
LEX 09/15/2024 6 KYSS n/a
LEX 09/08/2024 3 KYSS n/a
LEX 08/25/2024 6 KYSS Streaming Video
LEX 08/13/2024 6 KYSS Streaming Video
M 08/03/2024 12 Hambo F Streaming Video
M 07/27/2024 9 Hambo E Streaming Video
M 07/13/2024 6 S Dancer Streaming Video
M 06/29/2024 6 Reynolds Streaming Video
M 05/31/2024 10 NJSS FINAL Streaming Video
M 05/18/2024 10 NJSS Streaming Video
M 05/11/2024 4 NJSS Streaming Video
M 04/27/2024 8 Qua n/a
11 records
Track Code Race Date Race No. Coded Class Video Formats * **
M 11/25/2023 5 VllyVictry Streaming Video
M 11/04/2023 7 Kndrgarten Streaming Video
HOP 10/27/2023 13 BrCrown-F Streaming Video
HOP 10/19/2023 9 BrCrown-E Streaming Video
LEX 10/06/2023 3 INTSTALION Streaming Video
LEX 09/28/2023 12 BLUEGRASS Streaming Video
LEX 09/17/2023 5 KYSSFINAL Streaming Video
LEX 09/03/2023 9 KYSS Streaming Video
LEX 08/20/2023 6 KYSS Streaming Video
M 08/04/2023 3 Kndrgarten Streaming Video
M 07/28/2023 2 2yr C n/a
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The 'greatest' trotters of all time have to race over all 4 size ovals (1 mile-2 turns, 7/8 mile-2 turns, 5/8 mile-3 turns, and 1/2 mile-4 turns) not 2! Karl has NEVER raced on a 5/8-mile track and a 1/2-mile track! Please read it here on horseplop. More likely than not, Karl will not race on a 'smaller' track!
12 records
Track Code Race Date Race No. Coded Class Video Formats * **
LEX 09/15/2024 6 KYSS n/a
LEX 09/08/2024 3 KYSS n/a
LEX 08/25/2024 6 KYSS Streaming Video
LEX 08/13/2024 6 KYSS Streaming Video
M 08/03/2024 12 Hambo F Streaming Video
M 07/27/2024 9 Hambo E Streaming Video
M 07/13/2024 6 S Dancer Streaming Video
M 06/29/2024 6 Reynolds Streaming Video
M 05/31/2024 10 NJSS FINAL Streaming Video
M 05/18/2024 10 NJSS Streaming Video
M 05/11/2024 4 NJSS Streaming Video
M 04/27/2024 8 Qua n/a
11 records
Track Code Race Date Race No. Coded Class Video Formats * **
M 11/25/2023 5 VllyVictry Streaming Video
M 11/04/2023 7 Kndrgarten Streaming Video
HOP 10/27/2023 13 BrCrown-F Streaming Video
HOP 10/19/2023 9 BrCrown-E Streaming Video
LEX 10/06/2023 3 INTSTALION Streaming Video
LEX 09/28/2023 12 BLUEGRASS Streaming Video
LEX 09/17/2023 5 KYSSFINAL Streaming Video
LEX 09/03/2023 9 KYSS Streaming Video
LEX 08/20/2023 6 KYSS Streaming Video
M 08/04/2023 3 Kndrgarten Streaming Video
M 07/28/2023 2 2yr C n/a
Gee 3 tracks in his entire life? Well traveled. 4 more and likely done and my guess lucky if he get's 15k stud fee. Tactical approcah is 12,500 and much better pedigree and never had soundness issues like Karl.
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Gee 3 tracks in his entire life? Well traveled. 4 more and likely done and my guess lucky if he get's 15k stud fee. Tactical approcah is 12,500 and much better pedigree and never had soundness issues like Karl.
Is 'well traveled' "sarcastic" or serious?
The only good thing for the horse is that it raced at the same track for multiple starts in a row before moving on to the next race.
Many other horses of this caliber are racing at different tracks each start. A lot easier (for the horse and staff) racing at 1 venue for extended time compared to the traveling road show with different engagements each start.
At 2 years old
2 consecutive starts (1Q+1 race) at The Meadowlands
5 consecutive starts at Lexington
2 consecutive starts at Hoosier
2 consecutive starts at The Meadowlands
At 3
7 consecutive starts [1Q+7 races] at The Meadowlands
4 consecutive starts at Lexington
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Who has ever put Karl on a GOAT list? His history has yet to be written. Once again...Karl will be remembered as the greatest trotter of all time.
give it up
you were way wrong here
just face facts--he was never close to being a great trotter
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give it up
you were way wrong here
just face facts--he wasnt never close to being a great trotter
I never said he was. The only one not facing facts is you.
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Karl finished second.
Karl was the first one to get beat….
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It is not that he is so good....he is the best of a very average group. Visually he is unimpressive...lo oks like a horse.
Most of the really great trotters had a deeper girth. He is what running horse people refer to as 'scopey'.
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It is not that he is so good....he is the best of a very average group. Visually he is unimpressive...lo oks like a horse.
Most of the really great trotters had a deeper girth. He is what running horse people refer to as 'scopey'.
With a trotter I want to see them stretch their legs out as far as possible in their gait reaching for racetrack. Karl doesn't do that at all.
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(https://ustrottingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/DameGoodTime091524.jpg)
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Of course it would have depended on the rest of his season. Had he won out $40 to $50,000. Right now he is just another very nice horse. Today he lost more value than he would gain with a BC win.
In all due respect, no shot whatsoever. Not even close. It's just not that kind of marketplace right now. Sure, we've seen all kinds of yearlign records broken, but that's not the entire marketplace, that's a very small segment, with the rest of the market being pumped up, manipulated, etc. Even in the super high end of the marketplace, those #'s are BS anyway. The highest trotting stud fee on the market is, what, $40k? And that's for a stallion (Walner) with a proven track record, and averaged over $125k per yearling at a select sale. I am not a breeder, but I breed a very few select mares that I bought or kept. More importantly, I go to every yearling sale, talk to breeders, farms, buyers, etc. The marketplace right now is very top and upper mid heavy, and premium. It's not the general public or the people here who are dictating the market. They are not the buyers.
The breeders and the yearling buyers saw this horse win the Hambo "because" and/or "despite." We all know the because and/or despite. They've seen him before and after. So, first, if he wins what's left in KY, runs the table, and the BC, he'll have some stellar stats, they'll say he's best in class, and he'll go stand somewhere for an average first year Hambo and/or BC winner stud fee. He'll get pumped up like they do every year. Second, if he comes back next year, matures, grows out of his issues, and becomes a completely different horse-----and he has a Bulldog Hanover or Artsplace kind of 4yo year, then we are talking about a totally different story. But, if he doesn't do either, and people talk about a GOAT list, or even talk about this horse next year, in a few years.....you'll say Karl, and people will say, "Who?"
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I guess almost everyone here even sees him for what he is.
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I guess almost everyone here even sees him for what he is.
One sentence. Hard to believe.
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They all get beat, get over it. He's still got over 750K, more races to go. He will still end up standing stud, and people will breed to him. They won't care about skipping 1/2 or 5/8 mile tracks.
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Gee 3 tracks in his entire life? Well traveled. 4 more and likely done and my guess lucky if he get's 15k stud fee. Tactical approcah is 12,500 and much better pedigree and never had soundness issues like Karl.
$15k is possible. I wouldn't be shocked at $10k. Even at that, you really have to look at his pedigree and see what kind of mares the commercial breeders can potentially breed to him, who the alternatives are, etc. The pedigree/breeding is one side and then there's the economics/market. If I am a commercial breeder and I can breed to a $30k or $40k stallion, and a target market average of $125k, you can bet that breeder is going to heavily weigh that vs what? A first crop sire, Karl, all things considered, with a $10k or $15 stud fee, and a target market average of what? $35k or $40k? $50k? Even $60k. Cost the same to feed them both, LOL.
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All I can say is I watched the race and thought he was a winner in the lane. I was kinda shocked when Zeron just seemed to coast up the rail to win by a neck. I had a $10 tri 7/5/14. Oh well!
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$15k is possible. I wouldn't be shocked at $10k. Even at that, you really have to look at his pedigree and see what kind of mares the commercial breeders can potentially breed to him, who the alternatives are, etc. The pedigree/breeding is one side and then there's the economics/market. If I am a commercial breeder and I can breed to a $30k or $40k stallion, and a target market average of $125k, you can bet that breeder is going to heavily weigh that vs what? A first crop sire, Karl, all things considered, with a $10k or $15 stud fee, and a target market average of what? $35k or $40k? $50k? Even $60k. Cost the same to feed them both, LOL.
Great point. Most do not have a clue about economics and breeding. They got greedy and turned down huge money for him as stallion and now he isn't worth half that value. At 10k fee that is 1.4 mil a yr so he may be worth 4 mil tops right now as a stud. 3yrs to get paid before his first crop hits the track.
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Breeders get paid once the foal is born.
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They all get beat, get over it. He's still got over 750K, more races to go. He will still end up standing stud, and people will breed to him. They won't care about skipping 1/2 or 5/8 mile tracks.
Correct. Everyone of these assholes had Muscle Hill on their top trotter list. How many races on a small track did he compete in? Also, I predict Karl races next year.
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They all get beat, get over it. He's still got over 750K, more races to go. He will still end up standing stud, and people will breed to him. They won't care about skipping 1/2 or 5/8 mile tracks.
Someone please look up Donato Hanover and what tracks he raced on? See if he raced on smaller tracks.
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Someone please look up Donato Hanover and what tracks he raced on? See if he raced on smaller tracks.
Donato Hanover raced at five tracks.....Mohawk, Woodbine, Duquoin, Lexington, and the Meadowlands.
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yep Donato Hanover and Deweycheatemnhowe do have better resumes than Karl
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Donato Hanover raced at five tracks.....Mohawk, Woodbine, Duquoin, Lexington, and the Meadowlands.
Wanted to be sure. All big tracks also.
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You are not comparing Karl to Varenne, Ourasi, Moni Maker, Mack Lobell, and horses of that caliber. You are either a fool or uneducated if you are. It's plain and simple. Karl is not getting within light years of a GOAT list. Period. Is it possible for a US-only based horse, who never goes to Europe, never competes at many/multiple tracks, at different distances, etc., to get on a GOAT list? Absolutely. Rare, but absolutely. Case in point.....so, now, if you are trying to compare a horse like Karl to Muscle Hill, you are not going to pick one over the other because of the # of tracks one raced on. That's nonsense.
You are going to either know what you are looking at, or not. You are going to see each horse on the track, be a quality, strong judge of horseflesh, or not. Other than his first start where he finished second in a NJSS race, Muscle Hill never lost another race. After that race, he ran the table, at two and at three. Either you know what you are looking at or not. If you respect Bob Boni, Dave Reid, Bob Marks, Carter Duer, Les Stark, Murray Brown (who could not be objective and unbiased if you put a gun to his head), Sy Bonem, Jerry Glantz, Jan Johnson (who is a bloodstock advisor and consultant now), and if you knew Art Goldsmith, John Bradley, Geoff Stein, Richard Meirs, and several others, while they were alive, simply ask them. As long as they are being objective and don't have a conflict, you'll get a qualified, educated, quality answer. These are people who have spent their entire lives in-----actually in-----this game, they make their living in this game. People pay the for their opinions, assessments, etc. They aren't simply fans, they are students and masters of this game. I know Muscle Hill would make it onto at least a few of these people's GOAT list. Without question. What I know even more definitively..... Karl ain't. Let him do what I said before and then we'll talk. Until then, it's a moot discussion.
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All I can say is I watched the race and thought he was a winner in the lane. I was kinda shocked when Zeron just seemed to coast up the rail to win by a neck. I had a $10 tri 7/5/14. Oh well!
At least you can be objective, even having a vested interest, LOL.
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Great point. Most do not have a clue about economics and breeding. They got greedy and turned down huge money for him as stallion and now he isn't worth half that value. At 10k fee that is 1.4 mil a yr so he may be worth 4 mil tops right now as a stud. 3yrs to get paid before his first crop hits the track.
Nobody is writing checks any more. It's all syndications with the lead farm making a financial commitment which is nothing more than a bridge loan. Even some of those farms are financing their initial commitment. Regardless, if they wanted to cap him at 120 mares, at $10k, I don't know if he gets a full book. Not legit at least. Even if he does, 100 mares in foal, maybe 110, the three year and out game is over. A major portion of the mares bred will be the lead farm's mares and they want the grand slam now. Every one of them wants to be the one selling a yearling for $400k, $500k, or more. It happened once and now every one wants it.
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Alexanders horses have been on fire all year. Didn’t stop when he got to lex.
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Karl would have jerked the bridle off of horses like Mack Lobell,Varenne, Ourasi, Moni Maker, Peace Corp, etc. He trots in 1:50 every week. None of them had the innate ability to do so. Were they champions? Of course they were but evolution has made Karl a faster horse than them. This is not an opinion, it is fact. Just like horses, humans have become faster and stronger due to evolution, as well. Every 1-2 generations, carbon based life forms evolve into stronger, faster and even smarter beings. Please don't give me the "track surface" and "inferior equipment" excuse. If you don't think evolution is real, go look at a basketball game from the 60's. Michael Jordan or Lebron James in their present day shape would have averaged 200 point per game against players from that era. If their was a time machine that could take Usain Bolt back to the 1960's, he would have won his sprints by yards and not inches. All athletes of today, whether it is humans or equines are superior to the competitors of 40-50 years ago.
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Karl would have jerked the bridle off of horses like Mack Lobell,Varenne, Ourasi, Moni Maker, Peace Corp, etc. He trots in 1:50 every week. None of them had the innate ability to do so. Were they champions? Of course they were but evolution has made Karl a faster horse than them. This is not an opinion, it is fact. Just like horses, humans have become faster and stronger due to evolution, as well. Every 1-2 generations, carbon based life forms evolve into stronger, faster and even smarter beings. Please don't give me the "track surface" and "inferior equipment" excuse. If you don't think evolution is real, go look at a basketball game from the 60's. Michael Jordan or Lebron James in their present day shape would have averaged 200 point per game against players from that era. If their was a time machine that could take Usain Bolt back to the 1960's, he would have won his sprints by yards and not inches. All athletes of today, whether it is humans or equines are superior to the competitors of 40-50 years ago.
That is like saying todays 5 claimers are better then Niatross. Yet nobody would call fill in the blank 5 claimer as being better then him. I have to agree , Karl is very nice and fast but nowhere near an all time great.
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Mike-I wasn't going to reply--but your comments in this last post-IMHO is WRONG .
Secretariat-51 years ago-won the triple crown-and STILL holds the records for those races--no one has been able to beat it despite improvements in training techniques,Vet treatments,nutrition etc. Hell--even aged horses havent beaten his Belmont Stakes winning time-not even close and all by himself.
Now I agree-harness horses seem to have improved--but 50 years ago--there was no EPO,milkshaking , PED's etc-which according to what I read just about every day here on Plop--has resulted in fake "super" horses.
What has improved is trotters of today-seem to be better gaited and have better manners-and are trained lightly-as there are no more heat races where the fittest and the most endurance abled horses won. Today-its all about speed so no wonder the times have improved. The race bikes of today are seconds faster than those of yesteryear-and no hub rail allows the wheels to be closer to the inside-=faster times.
Go tell the Europeans that Karl is a world beater--he wouldnt get a check racing vs the top 3yo's in Europe.He lacks the gate speed to be prominent on smaller tracks-so on a 5/8 like Sweden-he'd get lost as no way can he beat them parked out the mile like some of the real GOAT have done.
The ONLY way Karl could be a GOAT is if he beats the worlds best a number of times..
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Even Andy miller and secret agent man were going by Karl when he jumped
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Karl would have jerked the bridle off of horses like Mack Lobell,Varenne, Ourasi, Moni Maker, Peace Corp, etc. He trots in 1:50 every week. None of them had the innate ability to do so. Were they champions? Of course they were but evolution has made Karl a faster horse than them. This is not an opinion, it is fact. Just like horses, humans have become faster and stronger due to evolution, as well. Every 1-2 generations, carbon based life forms evolve into stronger, faster and even smarter beings. Please don't give me the "track surface" and "inferior equipment" excuse. If you don't think evolution is real, go look at a basketball game from the 60's. Michael Jordan or Lebron James in their present day shape would have averaged 200 point per game against players from that era. If their was a time machine that could take Usain Bolt back to the 1960's, he would have won his sprints by yards and not inches. All athletes of today, whether it is humans or equines are superior to the competitors of 40-50 years ago.
Are you insane.. John Campbell when I personally spoke to him said Mack Lobell was the greatest he ever drove. You are clock watching to much.. is Karl faster then those greats of the past. Yes because of evolution and breeding like you mentioned... It comes down to resume against the competition you faced during each horses era. Karl could not even win a sire stakes final with a perfect trip LOL.. if he races at 4 and wins 13 out of 15 than I'll eat my words but I would be shocked if that happens
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why does the industry and fans stare at the clock so incessantly?
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great horses get beat but this horse is nowhere near the best of all time
Muscle Hill
Mack Lobell
Sebastian K
Atlanta
Manchego
Jiggy Jog
all would eat Karl's lunch in the stretch...karl is a very very good horse but they have babied him and he is avoiding alot of the big races and was going to beat here by Secret Agent Man in the stretch if he didnt blow up
I think American Winner might belong on that list.
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People like to use John Campbell as a barometer. I think overall, he was the GOAT at this writing, however, JC got a bad case of the shits when he crossed the George Washington Bridge, so did Adios Vic and a plethora of closers. People also say that Zenyetta was the best filly/mare, however, she was pure closer that beat a lot of mediocre fillies/mares during the time. Ruffian was the greatest. When they had the great match race, the ky derby winner's jock, Jacinto Vasquez who drove Foolish Pleasure the entire season chose Ruffian. Sorry to go off topic a little, however, people mistake horses who go these incredible last quarters as being great. They are in fact considered by horsemen to be nickel-plated because they need the race to be made for them. Great horses win on the muscle. Enough said.
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why does the industry and fans stare at the clock so incessantly?
Because the thoroughbred people don't!
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That is like saying todays 5 claimers are better then Niatross. Yet nobody would call fill in the blank 5 claimer as being better then him. I have to agree , Karl is very nice and fast but nowhere near an all time great.
All I said is he is faster than the the trotters 40 or so years ago. I sat behind horses in the 70's and I sat behind horses this morning and there is no comparison. Today's horse is much faster and has much more stamina. That is due to evolution. Bob Cousy, Elgin Baylor and Oscar Robertson were GOAT when they played. I guarantee you, they couldn't make an NBA team today. Rambling Willie, Tarport Hap, Silk Stockings all great horses would have a hard time getting checks in mid level races at M1 or Yonkers in 2024. Idiots are posting things like you are looking at the timer and not the horse. Well fuck yes, I am looking at the timer. The fastest horse gets the trophy morons and the horses from yesteryear would not be able to keep up in 2024.
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Are you insane.. John Campbell when I personally spoke to him said Mack Lobell was the greatest he ever drove. You are clock watching to much.. is Karl faster then those greats of the past. Yes because of evolution and breeding like you mentioned... It comes down to resume against the competition you faced during each horses era. Karl could not even win a sire stakes final with a perfect trip LOL.. if he races at 4 and wins 13 out of 15 than I'll eat my words but I would be shocked if that happens
Sorry, I won't start on the beginning of your post.
There are 2 sides of the coin---
How much better would Mack Lobell be today with better feed, nutrition, medical advances, racebikes, race surfaces, etc.?
Now take a look at Karl having to go to Mack Lobell's in his time frame with what the program of the day was back then.
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Race replay and the camera at the Red Mile moves a bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5Vy5F3y3hw
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Mike-I wasn't going to reply--but your comments in this last post-IMHO is WRONG .
Secretariat-51 years ago-won the triple crown-and STILL holds the records for those races--no one has been able to beat it despite improvements in training techniques,Vet treatments,nutrition etc. Hell--even aged horses havent beaten his Belmont Stakes winning time-not even close and all by himself.
Now I agree-harness horses seem to have improved--but 50 years ago--there was no EPO,milkshaking , PED's etc-which according to what I read just about every day here on Plop--has resulted in fake "super" horses.
What has improved is trotters of today-seem to be better gaited and have better manners-and are trained lightly-as there are no more heat races where the fittest and the most endurance abled horses won. Today-its all about speed so no wonder the times have improved. The race bikes of today are seconds faster than those of yesteryear-and no hub rail allows the wheels to be closer to the inside-=faster times.
Go tell the Europeans that Karl is a world beater--he wouldnt get a check racing vs the top 3yo's in Europe.He lacks the gate speed to be prominent on smaller tracks-so on a 5/8 like Sweden-he'd get lost as no way can he beat them parked out the mile like some of the real GOAT have done.
The ONLY way Karl could be a GOAT is if he beats the worlds best a number of times..
Here is a list of the top Universities specializing in evolution. Don't believe me. Call them.
https://edurank.org/biology/evolutionary/us/
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What was the reason he was not entered for the Canadian Trotting Classic? Final goes for big money Saturday night.
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Race replay and the camera at the Red Mile moves a bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5Vy5F3y3hw
Everyone can see it. A lot of talk about if he does this, if he does that, GOAT list, and so on. At this point, that is a lot of talk, because the others caught up to him and he's got some issues. Convergence of circumstances. Bottom line, at this point, this colt has got to prove it.....because this colt was 1-9, in a seven horse field, in a $400k race, that they were pointing toward, and even more, look at the field. This was no Hambo or major competitive top stakes field. Weak field for $400k. There are losses in a horses career that are irrelevant, and more importantly, there are losses in a horses career that can show a horse's greatness, contribute to defining a horse's greatness. This loss was worlds away from that.
He's got two breeders in his ownership group. This could be an interesting fall for this colt. What does Crawford want to do and what does Bender want to do.....and of course Takter!
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People need to know if Andy doesn't make uncharacteristic break he goes right by and Karl is 3rd! So i don't wanna hear he was 2nd and barely fot beat. Andy was winning that race by an open length. His season is over. He won't get a sniff in the KY Futurity and he won't get a sniff in the BC. Kismet will win Canada, KY Futurity, BC and HE will be 3yo Trotter of the year.
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How about if Andy does not give Karl a hole ?? Softened him up a little and Andys horse would have been in better position. Lots of ifs.
Karl got his typical trip and got thumped.
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People need to know if Andy doesn't make uncharacteristic break he goes right by and Karl is 3rd! So i don't wanna hear he was 2nd and barely fot beat. Andy was winning that race by an open length. His season is over. He won't get a sniff in the KY Futurity and he won't get a sniff in the BC. Kismet will win Canada, KY Futurity, BC and HE will be 3yo Trotter of the year.
Well, I personally think Karl was courageous in defeat. I mean how does this horse trot start after start with a broken bone that you told us he had 3 months ago. ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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i can agree with the "evolution" concept-but just because Karl can trot some 1:50 miles.....
but true all time greats such as Varenne, Mack Lobell, Ourasi, Moni Maker raced in a era that never produced those fast miles, hardly makes Karl the "best trotter ever"--in fact-nothing could be further from reality
using the clock as a metric, measuring stick is foolishness(with all due respect) to the real great ones
Karl had 4 or 5 races remaining in his career-and i doubt he wins them all as the others in his class have obviously caught up--Highland Kismet, Sig Sauer, Secret Agent Man are still improving--Karl, not so much
no need to lash out and resort to insults
we can agree to disagree
you have the rights to your opinion
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This is turning out to be a weak crop of 3yo's, at least heading into year-end. With the revitalization of the KYSS program and $400k up for grabs, I expected a bit of a deeper field. Heck, I am sorry I didn't have one to race in there, LOL. I didn't think the Hambo was a tight bunch. Ake had one contender in the final, Sig Sauer, while his other horse was 20-1. Tony Alagna. Marcus Melander, and Nifty showed up with 20-1 horses, Linda Toscano didn't have any of her colts show up, and that left Karl, TCI and Highland Kismet, the former two struggling to regain 2yo greatness, and the latter trying to find some maturity and racing IQ.
Karl looked like just another horse in that race. I won't sell Team Takter short on what they will do with this colt, but unless he really improves and gets much better, he may just be a struggling contender in a weak class. I wouldn't be surprised if Takter gives him a bit of a break and tries to salvage what they can for the BC. If he wins that like he won the Hambo, great payday, but it doesn't do anything for his stud career. I wonder if the breeders want him in the breeding shed next year, and Takter wants to race him.....how does that play out? Two major forces there, Crawford and Bender. Crawford you want a good relationship with because you buy from them. You want to stay on their good side. Bender however, if a major, major force for Takter. I think if Bender says jump, Takter says how hi and what song do you want to sing when I do it. LOL.
Right now, the field is wide open for a top horse to step to the front of the class. Highland Kismet could be that horse. He has the ability, the talent. Let's see if he can put it together.
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i believe Sig Sauer is Noel Daley not Ake
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They took the trotting hopples off Highland Kismet and he's had one qualifier and two races since. He looks like a different horse He'll give you chills.
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Sept 14th start for Highland Kismet. Looks a lot more formidable than the guy we saw in the Hambletonian.
https://standardbredcanada.ca/news/9-14-24/woodbine-mohawk-park-september-14-2024.html
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i can agree with the "evolution" concept-but just because Karl can trot some 1:50 miles.....
but true all time greats such as Varenne, Mack Lobell, Ourasi, Moni Maker raced in a era that never produced those fast miles, hardly makes Karl the "best trotter ever"--in fact-nothing could be further from reality
using the clock as a metric, measuring stick is foolishness(with all due respect) to the real great ones
Karl had 4 or 5 races remaining in his career-and i doubt he wins them all as the others in his class have obviously caught up--Highland Kismet, Sig Sauer, Secret Agent Man are still improving--Karl, not so much
no need to lash out and resort to insults
we can agree to disagree
you have the rights to your opinion
You don't understand evolution and you certainly don't understand the theory of racing. Maybe the reason that you are a gambler and not a horsemen makes it hard for you to comprehend that the fastest horse wins the race. Karl is seconds faster than those horses. I don't care how much class they have, I don't care how much better bred they are and I don't care how much sounder they are. The bottom line is Karl is faster than them and would eat them for lunch every day and twice on Sunday.
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Karl is faster than them and would eat them for lunch every day and twice on every other Sunday.
tmbz1
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i believe Sig Sauer is Noel Daley not Ake
He is. Thanks. I wrote all that out of order and left out Noel, who is one of racings good guys, LOL. I was going on memory for the 10 horse final, LOL. Ake only had one in their and he was 20-1 ML. So was Tony and Marcus' horses, and Nifty's colt was either 15 or 20-1 ML. Thanks again.
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He is. Thanks. I wrote all that out of order and left out Noel, who is one of racings good guys, LOL. I was going on memory for the 10 horse final, LOL. Ake only had one in their and he was 20-1 ML. So was Tony and Marcus' horses, and Nifty's colt was either 15 or 20-1 ML. Thanks again.
Yeah. Noel is a real peach, you fucking jerkoff.
12/04/2018
POSSESSION OF HYPODERMIC NEEDLES, SYRINGES AND/OR INJECTABLE AND/OR OTHER DRUGS
As a result of the evidence and testimony presented in the administrative hearing conducted on Thursday, October 18, 2018, the Board of Judges has determined that Noel Daley: On May 13, 2018 did possess a shockwave therapy machine in his stabling area at Magical Acres Farm, which is an off-track stabling facility that is licensed by and under the jurisdiction of the New Jersey Racing Commission. The possession of a shockwave therapy machine by any person other than a licensed veterinarian at any racetrack, off-track stabling facility, or other location subject to the jurisdiction of the New Jersey Racing Commission is in direct violation of N.J.A.C. 13:71-23.17a. As a result, Mr. Daley is hereby issued a full suspension of his New Jersey Racing Commission license for a period of thirty (30) days and fined the sum of two thousand five hundred ($2,500.00) dollars. On May 13, 2018 Mr. Daley did possess in his stabling area at Magical Acres Farm numerous bottles of injectable therapeutic Fined: $ 10,000
Full - 90 days
02/25.2005
Positive test- post race
Additional Details:
A search of Mr. Daley's barn and stable area conducted by NJ State Police revealed a number of drug/drug instruments which were confiscated. As a result of a settlement agreement, he is suspended 270days (to run concurrent with the 180 day TCO2 suspension) which will conclude on 7/7/06. Furthermore he is fined $20,000 and agrees to reimburse the Racing Commission an additi- onal $20,000 for associated investigative and laboratory costs. The aggreg- ate $40,000 shall be paid in accordance with the terms of the settlement.
Fined: $ 20,000
Full suspension - 270 days:
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Sept 14th start for Highland Kismet. Looks a lot more formidable than the guy we saw in the Hambletonian.
https://standardbredcanada.ca/news/9-14-24/woodbine-mohawk-park-september-14-2024.html
Just an elim of course, but he did soooooo easy. Looking forward to watching him in the final. He doesn't look like he's going that fast. Only 11 starts or so, and not many of them against top horses. Still looks like he's learning, maturing, etc. He was kind of quirky early on, but he's certainly getting better. No, he's not making onto anyone's GOAT list either, LOL, but he certainly looks like he's making his way toward the leader of the pack. You don't need to look at the clock to see this colt's potential, LOL. He won like a 1-9 horse should win.....oh, sorry, he was 2-5, and he didn't get beat. I must have been confusing him with Karl, LOL.
After the CTC, I don't know what they'll do. I don't know if he's staked to the Red Mile races (the Bluegrass and the KY Futurity), and just over a month out is the BC at the Meadowlands. After that, even if he's staked for them, will they mess around with races like the Erskine, the Matron, etc. Wind him down, put him away, and bring him back next year. This horse has 4yo written all over him!
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All I read is Kismet.. I’m going with Akes Situationship. He drew outside in the Hambo and that cost him. Ake will have him ready….
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All I read is Kismet.. I’m going with Akes Situationship. He drew outside in the Hambo and that cost him. Ake will have him ready….
He's certainly a "Don't overlook".....Ake is a very sharp, astute, horseman. He does know how to point and peak a horse toward a race, perhaps better than anyone in the game today.
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You don't understand evolution and you certainly don't understand the theory of racing. Maybe the reason that you are a gambler and not a horsemen makes it hard for you to comprehend that the fastest horse wins the race. Karl is seconds faster than those horses. I don't care how much class they have, I don't care how much better bred they are and I don't care how much sounder they are. The bottom line is Karl is faster than them and would eat them for lunch every day and twice on Sunday.
Politely disagree.
Speed has changed in every generation of horses the last 40+ years.
I posted earlier how much better would be today with offset racing bikes, better feed, better medical advances
Now put Karl back in time with the race bikes, medical , etc
Bottom line, Karl would not be as good and Mack Lobell would be better!
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It would be great if Karl races at 4, because he still looks growthy to me and probably would improve provided he can stay sound, but I see no way that will happen. He better finish out his year strong too because his stock is falling. He was going to be 3rd if Andy's horse doesn't go offstride and he had his own way. Kismet should beat the pants off of him. And there's a horse that will be back next year, as a gelding.
The stud fee is an interesting discussion. I am of the opinion they're going to charge $20K minimum unless the wheels fall off from this point forward. Look at Greenshoe opening at $25K..And Gimpanzee started at what, $30K? And I can't recall if he started there, but Father Patrick was also $30K at some point early on. All of these are ludicrous (in my opinion). I thought it was insane for Tactical Landing to open at $15K as well, but seems to be justifying that at this point. Tactical Approach was much more fairly priced, but even that was a bit high ($12,500). I think thats the new norm though.
Also..I understand the speed of standardbreds has changed but if you truly believe you are watching a more talented horse than, say, Nevele Pride, Mack Lobell, Moni Maker, Varenne, etc. etc. etc. you truly don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. A horse like Nevele Pride was light years ahead of everything he went against. Same with Muscle Hill, if you want a more recent example. Karl isn't light years ahead of anything in recent memory. Plenty of horses can trot in 50-51.
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The greats of years past would be going just as fast as Karl. Better bikes, faster surfaces, good supplements, & better PED's. Karl is a good horse as of now. If he loses a few more I wouldn't be surprised if he is retired. Takter will claim an injury.
Hurricane Kingcole was a very fast horse. When he got looked in the eye the class went by. It will interesting to see what happens the next time Karl is challenged.
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Varenne went 1:51:1 in the Breeders Crown win. He did it easily too. 62 wins at 11 different distances. He is in the conversation of greatest trotter ever.
Muscle Hill won the Hambletonian in 1:50:1. Sears was not asking. He was a beast & I wish he raced at 4.
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Here is a quick view of mack lobell:
Mack Lobell (1984–2016) was a brown racing trotter by Mystic Park out of Matina Hanover by Speedy Count.
He won $3,917,594 during his career and was elected Harness Horse of the Year in 1987 and 1988. Among his many stakes victories were the Yonkers Trot, the Hambletonian, the Elitloppet (twice), the Breeders Crown events for three-year-old and for four-year-old trotters, and the International Trot.[1] His best time of 1:52.1 for the mile was taken as a three-year-old in a race in Springfield, Illinois; this time set the world record for trotters. John Campbell described him as the best horse he has driven.[2]
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This discussion has turned comedic, and foolish. Comparing Karl and Varenne. Come on. Tell me you are going to talk to people in the industry, breeders, bloodstock experts, people who have qualified opinions, and you are going to make a case to-----compare the two? Put Karl on a GOAT list? Make a case that Karl should be considered along side of horses like Varenne, Ourasi, Mack Lobell, Moni Maker, etc.? You would lose all credibility immediately, and you'd never get it back, LOL.
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Stop the "one of the greats" talk.. Karl is Trixton 2.0.. evaluation solved, a very good colt in a mediocre crop.. you're welcome.!!
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Peace Corps winner of 5.6 million. Winner of World Trotting Derby and Kentucky Futurity against the boys, the Yonkers International Trot being hung out almost the whole mile and a quarter and 4 time breeders crown winner. Winner of the elitlopp and multiple stakes races against the boys in Europe.Voted best 2 year old filly trotter, 3 year old trotter of the year regardless of sex and best older trotting mare at 4,5 and 6. She held multiple track records on all sized tracks for years. The only trotting mare that was in her league was Moni Maker. Karl couldn't even win a sire stakes final against an average field lol.
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Peace Corps winner of 5.6 million. Winner of World Trotting Derby and Kentucky Futurity against the boys, the Yonkers International Trot being hung out almost the whole mile and a quarter and 4 time breeders crown winner. Winner of the elitlopp and multiple stakes races against the boys in Europe.Voted best 2 year old filly trotter, 3 year old trotter of the year regardless of sex and best older trotting mare at 4,5 and 6. She held multiple track records on all sized tracks for years. The only trotting mare that was in her league was Moni Maker. Karl couldn't even win a sire stakes final against an average field lol.
Peace Corp 152:4 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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Mack Lobell 152:1 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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Moni Maker 152:1 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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Peace Corps winner of 5.6 million. Winner of World Trotting Derby and Kentucky Futurity against the boys, the Yonkers International Trot being hung out almost the whole mile and a quarter and 4 time breeders crown winner. Winner of the elitlopp and multiple stakes races against the boys in Europe.Voted best 2 year old filly trotter, 3 year old trotter of the year regardless of sex and best older trotting mare at 4,5 and 6. She held multiple track records on all sized tracks for years. The only trotting mare that was in her league was Moni Maker. Karl couldn't even win a sire stakes final against an average field lol.
4-time BC winner....4 times!
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Mack Lobell can't hold on off a half in 57.2 in March Of Dimes. Mile goes in 155:1 What a super horse!! ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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Manchego, Mission Brief and Atlanta would have destroyed Peace Corp and Moni Maker.
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I wish I could debate who's the GOAT, but it's hard to really say definitively who that would be. I'm not sure time is the only "decider" since so much has changed since many of these great trotters have raced. But I think that it's a interesting discussion.
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Mack Lobell can't hold on off a half in 57.2 in March Of Dimes. Mile goes in 155:1 What a super horse!! ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
Which horses have more accomplishments on their resumes?
Win times are irrelevant as these superior horses raced 35 years ago!
ENOUGH SAID
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Mack Lobell 152:1 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
Just curious what kinda of bias you give to a racebike? Karl can't beat 50.3 in a bike that is far in a way lightyrs ahead of the wood Gerald non quick hitch that Mack toted around.
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Just curious what kinda of bias you give to a racebike? Karl can't beat 50.3 in a bike that is far in a way lightyrs ahead of the wood Gerald non quick hitch that Mack toted around.
ZERO. Too many unknowns. I am rating based on fact and the only fact is the teletimer. You geniuses can base your rating on conjecture such as surface, drugs, equipment, driver, etc.
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ZERO. Too many unknowns. I am rating based on fact and the only fact is the teletimer. You geniuses can base your rating on conjecture such as surface, drugs, equipment, driver, etc.
Mike you keft out the Carbon fiber wheels which weigh so much less. No doubt they make the times faster and have almost zero friction . it is basic physics.
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Mike you keft out the Carbon fiber wheels which weigh so much less. No doubt they make the times faster and have almost zero friction . it is basic physics.
All those things either help or hurt the only fact in horse racing..The teletimer.
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I suppose Mike thinks Legendary Hanover is or will be remembered as the greatest pacer ever since he went in 146.2 at the Meadowlands this year. And I suppose Bulldog Hanover is the greatest of all time.. what a joke
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I suppose Mike thinks Legendary Hanover is or will be remembered as the greatest pacer ever since he went in 146.2 at the Meadowlands this year. And I suppose Bulldog Hanover is the greatest of all time.. what a joke
You are leaving out Always B Miki and Lather up
he can stare at the clock all he wants-means nothing
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The greats of years past would be going just as fast as Karl. Better bikes, faster surfaces, good supplements, & better PED's. Karl is a good horse as of now. If he loses a few more I wouldn't be surprised if he is retired. Takter will claim an injury.
Hurricane Kingcole was a very fast horse. When he got looked in the eye the class went by. It will interesting to see what happens the next time Karl is challenged.
You forgot a very important part of the equation--driver! From what people in the business say, John Campbell could still drive with the boys of today if he had to. JC a lot better driver than Yannick too!
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4-time BC winner....4 times!
Mack Lobell (1984–2016) was a brown racing trotter by Mystic Park out of Matina Hanover by Speedy Count.
He won $3,917,594 during his career and was elected Harness Horse of the Year in 1987 and 1988. Among his many stakes victories were the Yonkers Trot, the Hambletonian, the Elitloppet (twice), the Breeders Crown events for three-year-old and for four-year-old trotters, and the International Trot.[1] His best time of 1:52.1 for the mile was taken as a three-year-old in a race in Springfield, Illinois; this time set the world record for trotters. John Campbell described him as the best horse he has driven.[2]
Question of the day: would you rather own a horse that made 3.9 million dollars 35 years ago and won the biggest races of the day or a horse that made 1.9 million and couldn't even win a 400k Kentucky Sires Stakes final (with the 'inflated' purses of the KYSS program)!
Food for thought:
If Mack Lobell raced in today's era of 'inflated' purses, how much money could he have made?
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JT and Papillon prove how shitty the education system is. All I said is horses of today are faster than horses of 40 years ago. You non horsemen piece of shit jerkoffs are fabricating things I never said. Go fuck yourself.
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JT and Papillon prove how shitty the education system is. All I said is horses of today are faster than horses of 40 years ago. You non horsemen piece of shit jerkoffs are fabricating things I never said. Go fuck yourself.
Is faster, better?
Please read this again in case you missed it moments ago!
Mack Lobell (1984–2016) was a brown racing trotter by Mystic Park out of Matina Hanover by Speedy Count.
He won $3,917,594 during his career and was elected Harness Horse of the Year in 1987 and 1988. Among his many stakes victories were the Yonkers Trot, the Hambletonian, the Elitloppet (twice), the Breeders Crown events for three-year-old and for four-year-old trotters, and the International Trot.[1] His best time of 1:52.1 for the mile was taken as a three-year-old in a race in Springfield, Illinois; this time set the world record for trotters. John Campbell described him as the best horse he has driven.[2]
Question of the day: would you rather own a horse that made 3.9 million dollars 35 years ago and won the biggest races of the day or a horse that made 1.9 million and couldn't even win a 400k Kentucky Sires Stakes final (with the 'inflated' purses of the KYSS program)!
IMO, the purse money is more important than how fast you go when you win!
Waiting for others to chime in on this!
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JT and Papillon prove how shitty the education system is. All I said is horses of today are faster than horses of 40 years ago. You non horsemen piece of shit jerkoffs are fabricating things I never said. Go fuck yourself.
"better to to be silent and thought of as a fool, staring at the clock than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt"
you have removed all doubt
73cv.2 73cv.2 73cv.2
actually you removed all doubt a long time ago 73cv.2 73cv.2 73cv.2
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"better to to be silent and thought of as a fool, staring at the clock than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt"
you have removed all doubt
73cv.2 73cv.2 73cv.2
actually you removed all doubt a long time ago 73cv.2 73cv.2 73cv.2
You're a fucking loser.
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You're a fucking loser.
is that the best you have? ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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is that the best you have? ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
The problem is you don't have the intellect to understand so you resort to bashing which solidifies everyone's opinion of you.
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The problem is you don't have the intellect to understand so you resort to bashing which solidifies everyone's opinion of you.
I didn't know that polite arguments and constructive criticism is considered "BASHING"! OOPS, look at the one who is saying this about others here!
Welcome to horseplop 2024!
Welcome to the world we live in 2024!
SAD, ISN’T IT!!!!!!
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"better to to be silent and thought of as a fool, staring at the clock than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt"
you have removed all doubt
73cv.2 73cv.2 73cv.2
actually you removed all doubt a long time ago 73cv.2 73cv.2 73cv.2
100% CORRECT!
And people worry about me on horseplop!
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is that the best you have? ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
Same playbook over and over again, isn't it!
He saves his best for me!
What can I tell you!
LAY DOWN MIKE, PLEASE LAY DOWN!!
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I suppose Mike thinks Legendary Hanover is or will be remembered as the greatest pacer ever since he went in 146.2 at the Meadowlands this year. And I suppose Bulldog Hanover is the greatest of all time.. what a joke
Not to mention Homicide Hunter who by MC's standards would have blown right by Karl by nearly 10 lengths.
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Not to mention Homicide Hunter who by MC's standards would have blown right by Karl by nearly 10 lengths.
Another idiot that doesn't know how to read. No wonder the Country is in trouble.
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Another idiot that doesn't know how to read. No wonder the Country is in trouble.
You're right. My comprehension is the one lacking. You, when asked how much credence you give to newer race bikes:
"ZERO. Too many unknowns. I am rating based on fact and the only fact is the teletimer. You geniuses can base your rating on conjecture such as surface, drugs, equipment, driver, etc."
If "the only fact is the teletimer," find the lie in my statement.
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You're right. My comprehension is the one lacking. You, when asked how much credence you give to newer race bikes:
"ZERO. Too many unknowns. I am rating based on fact and the only fact is the teletimer. You geniuses can base your rating on conjecture such as surface, drugs, equipment, driver, etc."
If "the only fact is the teletimer," find the lie in my statement.
Find it yourself. Prove to everyone that you aren't as stupid as I know you are.
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Are you insane.. John Campbell when I personally spoke to him said Mack Lobell was the greatest he ever drove. You are clock watching to much.. is Karl faster then those greats of the past. Yes because of evolution and breeding like you mentioned... It comes down to resume against the competition you faced during each horses era. Karl could not even win a sire stakes final with a perfect trip LOL.. if he races at 4 and wins 13 out of 15 than I'll eat my words but I would be shocked if that happens
Another fucking idiot that apparently can't read. I never said Mack Lobell wasn't a great horse. You personally talked to JC who said he is the greatest horse he has ever driven. That may be true but he never said Mack Lobell was the fastest horse he has ever driven which has been my point from the beginning but morons like you spin things your way. Who's insane jerkoff?
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You're right. My comprehension is the one lacking. You, when asked how much credence you give to newer race bikes:
"ZERO. Too many unknowns. I am rating based on fact and the only fact is the teletimer. You geniuses can base your rating on conjecture such as surface, drugs, equipment, driver, etc."
If "the only fact is the teletimer," find the lie in my statement.
I believe winning on all size tracks is greater than only on 2-turn tracks!
Winning the big race(s) in Europe is greater than not getting there at all!
3.9 million (1988) dollars is greater than 1.8 million (2024) dollars!
I guess some people don't know better even if it right in front of them!
Your comprehension is fine! You're dealing with someone who can't see the forest from the trees and who doesn't know when to lay down too!
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I believe winning on all size tracks is greater than only on 2-turn tracks!
Winning the big race(s) in Europe is greater than not getting there at all!
3.9 million (1988) dollars is greater than 1.8 million (2024) dollars!
I guess some people don't know better even if it right in front of them!
Your comprehension is fine! You're dealing with someone who can't see the forest from the trees and who doesn't know when to lay down too!
So, you're comparing truly all-time greats----Varenne, Ourasi, Moni Maker, Mack Lobell----with Karl. And, in doing so, you are looking at everything, all factors taken into consideration, everything possible........a nd then, you are comparing that to an argument that is ONLY looking at the teletimer, as the ONLY fact, and on that one factor, that one factor, picks the best horse? I think your time is better spent elsewhere. Actually, let me rephrase that; I think your time is better spent anywhere else. LOL.
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The teletimer is the only FACT when judging a horse's performance. I need a good laugh. Name something else factual and not subjective about judging the performance of a racehorse.
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The teletimer is the only FACT when judging a horse's performance. I need a good laugh. Name something else factual and not subjective about judging the performance of a racehorse.
Do you also directly compare pitchers of today versus the early 1900's? Cause if you only go by the factual earned run average, the 50 best pitchers in the history of baseball (except Mariano rivera) all just happened to pitch before 1950. Point being, things change.
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The teletimer is the only FACT when judging a horse's performance. I need a good laugh. Name something else factual and not subjective about judging the performance of a racehorse.
I would say earnings and the number of starts with firsts seconds and thirds would absolutely matter and are FACTS What are you on the Takter's payroll to promote this slightly above average horse who isn't even the best 3 year old in his own state.
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Do you also directly compare pitchers of today versus the early 1900's? Cause if you only go by the factual earned run average, the 50 best pitchers in the history of baseball (except Mariano rivera) all just happened to pitch before 1950. Point being, things change.
Is ERA the deciding factor when judging the 50 best pitchers? There are many facts in baseball. In fact, it is a game of stats. Maybe strikeouts should be used. Maybe win -loss record should be used. Maybe WHIP should be used. Horse racing only has one fact which is time of the race.
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I would say earnings and the number of starts with firsts seconds and thirds would absolutely matter and are FACTS What are you on the Takter's payroll to promote this slightly above average horse who isn't even the best 3 year old in his own state.
He was bred in NJ you fool.
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He was bred in NJ you fool.
I understand that but what sire stakes program did he race in and lose the final in.. I'll give you a clue it starts with a K and ends in a y
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I understand that but what sire stakes program did he race in and lose the final in.. I'll give you a clue it starts with a K and ends in a y
Which one did he win?
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Which one did he win?
Big deal slightly above average horse.. when is the 148 mile coming that you said was going to happen 2 months ago.
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Big deal slightly above average horse.. when is the 148 mile coming that you said was going to happen 2 months ago.
First trotter in the history of Harness Racing to trot 7 consecutive sub 1:51 miles. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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Is ERA the deciding factor when judging the 50 best pitchers? There are many facts in baseball. In fact, it is a game of stats. Maybe strikeouts should be used. Maybe win -loss record should be used. Maybe WHIP should be used. Horse racing only has one fact which is time of the race.
Lol. Win loss record matters when comparing pitchers in baseball but win loss record is thrown out the window when comparing racehorses....
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time is only relative when you are in jail.... been beating on a mediocre group of trotters.
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First trotter in the history of Harness Racing to trot 7 consecutive sub 1:51 miles. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Great ones aren't scared to race on ovals smaller than a mile
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Lol. Win loss record matters when comparing pitchers in baseball but win loss record is thrown out the window when comparing racehorses....
Of course win loss is irrelevant. The winningest mare pacer of all time was a cheap claimer. Also, I never said win loss should be used in baseball. I was just adding other facts about pitchers. You're the one who brought up ERA. You can try to twist my words all you want but once again, time is the only fact in a horse race.
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Great ones aren't scared to race on ovals smaller than a mile
You're assuming he can't get around a smaller oval. That is an opinion and not a fact.
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I AM STILL WAITING GENIUSES>>>>>>>>>>The teletimer is the only FACT when judging a horse's performance. I need a good laugh. Name something else factual and not subjective about judging the performance of a racehorse.
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Of course win loss is irrelevant. The winningest mare pacer of all time was a cheap claimer. Also, I never said win loss should be used in baseball. I was just adding other facts about pitchers. You're the one who brought up ERA. You can try to twist my words all you want but once again, time is the only fact in a horse race.
Under those rules Karl is not in the top 3 fastest 2yo or 3yo trotters ever and multiple fillies have gone faster at 3. Facts are facts
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You're assuming he can't get around a smaller oval. That is an opinion and not a fact.
Not me, the connections are assuming that.
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i have seen many "fast " horses
that doesn't mean they were "great "hoses
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Under those rules Karl is not in the top 3 fastest 2yo or 3yo trotters ever and multiple fillies have gone faster at 3. Facts are facts
Where did I ever say Karl was the fastest ever?
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Where did I ever say Karl was the fastest ever?
His final times so far don't put him near the conversation of fastest ever. If final times are all that matter, you must think think horse is an afterthought. I don't get that from you tho
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So, you're comparing truly all-time greats----Varenne, Ourasi, Moni Maker, Mack Lobell----with Karl. And, in doing so, you are looking at everything, all factors taken into consideration, everything possible........a nd then, you are comparing that to an argument that is ONLY looking at the teletimer, as the ONLY fact, and on that one factor, that one factor, picks the best horse? I think your time is better spent elsewhere. Actually, let me rephrase that; I think your time is better spent anywhere else. LOL.
Thanks for bringing this up
Mack Lobell is just 1 of many horses better than Karl. Unfortunately, one individual just says the teletimer is the most important. Money made is important too as well as winning on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean.
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Another fucking idiot that apparently can't read. I never said Mack Lobell wasn't a great horse. You personally talked to JC who said he is the greatest horse he has ever driven. That may be true but he never said Mack Lobell was the fastest horse he has ever driven which has been my point from the beginning but morons like you spin things your way. Who's insane jerkoff?
Again, fastest isn’t the most important—accomplishment are!
LAY DOWN MIKE, PLEASE LAY DOWN!!!
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Great ones aren't scared to race on ovals smaller than a mile
That’s right! If Karl does racing on a smaller track, we will find out! As of now, this probably will not happen. Will he be racing in Europe next year?? Probably not.
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His final times so far don't put him near the conversation of fastest ever. If final times are all that matter, you must think think horse is an afterthought. I don't get that from you tho
No one took the time to read my original post. All they are doing is commenting and making fools of themselves. Briefly, I posted that due to evolution, horses in 2024 are faster than the horses from 40-50 years ago. Of course the morons here started posting names of horses that just raced or raced in the last few years. The idiots here then started disputing the theory of evolution. These are the same idiots that can't count to ten unless they are given 15 attempts.
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wow...anyone that thinks time is the biggest factor never watched Cam Fella or On the Road Again or any really good horses, they went fast enough to win.
Its all about class, class will overcome speed.....Steady Star time trialed in '52 and got beat by a mid level horse in his next start.
When its time to 'hear the music' class shows.
Perhaps 'Karl' is the class of his group..but they aren't an overly impressive group.
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wow...anyone that thinks time is the biggest factor never watched Cam Fella or On the Road Again or any really good horses, they went fast enough to win.
Its all about class, class will overcome speed.....Steady Star time trialed in '52 and got beat by a mid level horse in his next start.
When its time to 'hear the music' class shows.
Perhaps 'Karl' is the class of his group..but they aren't an overly impressive group.
Cam Fella was great for 1982. He never broke 1:53 in his life. He couldn't beat a 10K claimer in 2024.
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They all get beat, get over it. He's still got over 750K, more races to go. He will still end up standing stud, and people will breed to him. They won't care about skipping 1/2 or 5/8 mile tracks.
Agreed! I believe Donato Hanover did not race on any small tracks either!
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So Takter will make yet another stallion.
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No one took the time to read my original post. All they are doing is commenting and making fools of themselves. Briefly, I posted that due to evolution, horses in 2024 are faster than the horses from 40-50 years ago. Of course the morons here started posting names of horses that just raced or raced in the last few years. The idiots here then started disputing the theory of evolution. These are the same idiots that can't count to ten unless they are given 15 attempts.
Here is a list of those that have not raced in approximately 25 years!
Mack Lobell--late 1980's---3.9 million dollars.
Peace Corps--late 1980's--4.1 million dollars earned north america---including european races 5.5 million dollars.
Moni Maker--mid 1990's--5.5 milllion dollars.
All 3 of these horses won big races in both North America and Europe.
Varenne---late 1990's---8.75 million dollars and a race record of 1.51.1 at one mile.
Ourasi---mid 1980's---2.9 million dollars.
There are probably more horses that haven't been listed on this thread.
FYI, none of these horses have raced recently per your claim here on the thread.
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Cam Fella was great for 1982. He never broke 1:53 in his life. He couldn't beat a 10K claimer in 2024.
He raced in 1982 not 2024!--raced in the mid 1980s!--made 2 million dollars and won 28 races in a row!
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He raced in 1982 not 2024!--raced in the mid 1980s!--made 2 million dollars and won 28 races in a row!
Hold on a second there.....and I might be biased as I owned a share in him.....but, let's see what's going on here. As a 3yo, he had 32 or 33 starts, won 28 and was second twice, won the Cane, threw in a bad Meadowlands Pace elimination, did not qualify for the final, and that would be the very last time in his career that he finished off the board.....in 80 starts.
He wasn't staked to the Jug, but he won Messenger, after being supplemented, tying the track record in the first heat, and then winning the second by beating Jug winner Merger in a head to head duel. He ended up winning the Queen City, the Prix d'Été, the Sophomore Pace, the Confederation Cup and the Provincial. Cam Fella came back, was off to a slow start, but raced into peak performance and he won 28 in a row. 28. Did I say that? 28. He didn't win opens and invitationals to pad his record. He won two legs of the World Cup, the Graduate, the Driscoll, the American National, the Canadian Pacing Derby, the Stewart Fraser, the Challenge Cup, the Frank Ryan, the Gold Cup, and every single leg of the US Pacing Championship. Broke and set track records, showed up to the big dances, won, and came back to race again and just kept going.
At the end of his 4yo campaign, he won HOTY.....yes, for a second time. He won 30 of 36 starts and again, did I say it.....28 in a row.
He never beat 153.1
I guess he was a rat because the phony $7500 claimers at the Big M, with the amatuer drivers, would leave him from go and just keep opening up lengths on him. You really should no better.
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Like I said, horses from 40 or more years ago do not have the innate ability that horses of today have. It is just a fact. I never said the horses mentioned weren't great horses. Look at my posts. I called them all champions. You assholes just don't understand that the horse you followed with your Dad, Mom, Brother or Uncle when you were a kid is seconds slower than the horses of today. For the retards, and you know who you are, look up what innate means. It might help you understand and by knowing what it means, you won't continue to look like the jackasses that you have all turned out to be.
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Like I said, horses from 40 or more years ago do not have the innate ability that horses of today have. It is just a fact. I never said the horses mentioned weren't great horses. Look at my posts. I called them all champions. You assholes just don't understand that the horse you followed with your Dad, Mom, Brother or Uncle when you were a kid is seconds slower than the horses of today. For the retards, and you know who you are, look up what innate means. It might help you understand and by knowing what it means, you won't continue to look like the jackasses that you have all turned out to be.
Huh? They were 'tougher' horses as they could race 35+ times a year!
Again, please look at yourself in the mirror as far as being an "asshole", 'jackass', and "retard" actually is!
Please post again! I'm glad horseplop has a new 'punching bag' for a change!
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Hold on a second there.....and I might be biased as I owned a share in him.....but, let's see what's going on here. As a 3yo, he had 32 or 33 starts, won 28 and was second twice, won the Cane, threw in a bad Meadowlands Pace elimination, did not qualify for the final, and that would be the very last time in his career that he finished off the board.....in 80 starts.
He wasn't staked to the Jug, but he won Messenger, after being supplemented, tying the track record in the first heat, and then winning the second by beating Jug winner Merger in a head to head duel. He ended up winning the Queen City, the Prix d'Été, the Sophomore Pace, the Confederation Cup and the Provincial. Cam Fella came back, was off to a slow start, but raced into peak performance and he won 28 in a row. 28. Did I say that? 28. He didn't win opens and invitationals to pad his record. He won two legs of the World Cup, the Graduate, the Driscoll, the American National, the Canadian Pacing Derby, the Stewart Fraser, the Challenge Cup, the Frank Ryan, the Gold Cup, and every single leg of the US Pacing Championship. Broke and set track records, showed up to the big dances, won, and came back to race again and just kept going.
At the end of his 4yo campaign, he won HOTY.....yes, for a second time. He won 30 of 36 starts and again, did I say it.....28 in a row.
He never beat 153.1
I guess he was a rat because the phony $7500 claimers at the Big M, with the amatuer drivers, would leave him from go and just keep opening up lengths on him. You really should no better.
I'm extremely jealous of you Grandstand. What an awesome horse to own a part of. I bet you could tell some great stories. Cam Fella was one of my favorites when I was 7 or 8 years old.
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Cam Fella was a 1:53 pacer. Nothing more, nothing less. I know some people that would Amish their horses if that is all they could go.
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Cam Fella was a 1:53 pacer. Nothing more, nothing less. I know some people that would Amish their horses if that is all they could go.
Made 2 million dollars racing and a successful career at stud!
Money talks in this business!
I guess you don't understand simple concepts!
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How can you compare a horse bred 45 years ago with one bred today?
It is estimated that the genetic enhancements have likely contributed to a speed improvement of around 2-3 seconds per mile. This estimate is based on the understanding that modern pacing horses are bred for better gait, athleticism, and overall performance, then you have to take account of the improved bikes, track surfaces etc and there is another 3 to 4 seconds.
Yes the individual Cam Fella born 45 or so years ago if racing today would not achieve a 46 mile but neither would any other horse bred in his timeline.
He wouldn't be a 53 pacer today either, with the established equipment and track improvements he would probably be between 49 and 50 and maybe even a bit faster because he had heart.
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How can you compare a horse bred 45 years ago with one bred today?
It is estimated that the genetic enhancements have likely contributed to a speed improvement of around 2-3 seconds per mile. This estimate is based on the understanding that modern pacing horses are bred for better gait, athleticism, and overall performance, then you have to take account of the improved bikes, track surfaces etc and there is another 3 to 4 seconds.
Yes the individual Cam Fella born 45 or so years ago if racing today would not achieve a 46 mile but neither would any other horse bred in his timeline.
He wouldn't be a 53 pacer today either, with the established equipment and track improvements he would probably be between 49 and 50 and maybe even a bit faster because he had heart.
Thanks for making my point. Like I said, the only fact is time. All the other things you mentioned are maybe and probably. Equipment, medications, track surface are all subjective. Is today's bike 2 seconds faster, 3 seconds faster, 4 seconds faster. Is today's track surface 2 seconds faster, 3 seconds faster, 4 seconds faster. If you want to debate all those variables, have at it. I'm dealing with the only fact in horse racing and that is time. FACT..Cam Fella was a 1:53 pacer.
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Cam Fella won more races in one year than todays studs end their total starts careers with.
Todays horses are 1 mile dash horses, drugged to the gills, point them and go. Even if todays trainers has SOME SKILLS at training a horse for 2 or 3 heats the horses couldnt take it. The great trainers can still get it done but it takes a special horse.
If they pulled random races for a 3 day detention barn you would see lots of horses, if not most, go very flat miles if they were not scratched first.
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I'm extremely jealous of you Grandstand. What an awesome horse to own a part of. I bet you could tell some great stories. Cam Fella was one of my favorites when I was 7 or 8 years old.
Thanks, but there weren't any great stories or the like, because I owned a share in him (as a stallion). The "Two Norms" did tell some great stories about him when they were campaigning him, traveling, etc. But, then again, how great could the stories be.....he only went in 153.1
From Ed & Beverley Paquet's Tribute webpage:
Voted Harness Horse of the Year - 1982 and 1983 in both the US and in Canada
Champion Three-year-old Pacer - 1982
Pacing Horse of the Year - 1982
Champion Aged Pacer - 1983
Pacer of the Year - 1983
Inducted into the Canadian Horse Racing Hall of Fame and the American Harness Racing Hall of Fame
Posted more consecutive 2:00 wins than any other Standardbred in history with 32
Won 28 consecutive races and was known as "The Pacing Machine"
Nation's leading Standardbred sire multiple times
Retired as richest Standardbred in the history of harness racing -- 1983
Sired 13 crops of foals, including three-year-olds of 2000, who have earned in excess of $100 Million
Sire of 14 millionaires and 4 winners of "The Little Brown Jug"
Held track record at Roosevelt, Sportsman's Park, Edmonton, Greenwood, Mohawk, Pompano Park, & Cloverdale
Won two legs of the Pacing Triple crown - the Cane Pace and Messenger Pace in 1982
Won the Canadian Pacing Triple Crown, Canadian Pacing Derby, Prix d'Ete, Provincial Cup, World Cup, American-National, U.S. Pacing Championship, Mohawk Gold Cup, & Frank Ryan Memorial.
From the Canadian Hall of Fame:
His wins at age three included the Cane Pace, Queen City Pace (now called the North America Cup), Monticello-OTB Classic, Prix d’Ete, Messenger, Provincial Cup and the Confederation Cup. At four his 30 wins in 36 starts included the Stewart Fraser Memorial, Canadian Pacing Derby, B.C. Classic, World Cup, Graduate and Driscoll Series, Frank Ryan Memorial, American-National Maturity, Blue Bonnets Challenge Cup, Mohawk Gold Cup and U.S. Pacing Championships at Roosevelt and Sportsmans Park.
Retired to stud in New Jersey, Cam Fella became one of the greatest progenitors in the history of the standardbred horse. He sired 1,002 foals. His offspring accumulated $106.9 million and included 16 winners of at least $1 million and 268 performers that earned $100,000 or more. His millionaires include Eternal Camnation, Presidential Ball, Cams Card Shark, Precious Bunny and Camluck. His daughters proved to be prolific producers as well. Jennas Beach Boy (p,4, 1:47.3) and winner of $1.9 million is out of one of Cam’s daughters. Cam’s stud career ended in 1997 when he had to be gelded because of cancer. To ensure that Cam Fella’s “unparalleled contributions to the sport are never forgotten,” Standardbred Canada established “The Cam Fella Award” to recognize extreme effort and dedication to Canadian harness racing by an individual or group.
BUT...none of it means anything. He only went in 153.1
He'd get beat by every 10 claimer at the Meadowlands and Woodbine/Mohawk.
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Thanks, but there weren't any great stories or the like, because I owned a share in him (as a stallion). The "Two Norms" did tell some great stories about him when they were campaigning him, traveling, etc. But, then again, how great could the stories be.....he only went in 153.1
From Ed & Beverley Paquet's Tribute webpage:
Voted Harness Horse of the Year - 1982 and 1983 in both the US and in Canada
Champion Three-year-old Pacer - 1982
Pacing Horse of the Year - 1982
Champion Aged Pacer - 1983
Pacer of the Year - 1983
Inducted into the Canadian Horse Racing Hall of Fame and the American Harness Racing Hall of Fame
Posted more consecutive 2:00 wins than any other Standardbred in history with 32
Won 28 consecutive races and was known as "The Pacing Machine"
Nation's leading Standardbred sire multiple times
Retired as richest Standardbred in the history of harness racing -- 1983
Sired 13 crops of foals, including three-year-olds of 2000, who have earned in excess of $100 Million
Sire of 14 millionaires and 4 winners of "The Little Brown Jug"
Held track record at Roosevelt, Sportsman's Park, Edmonton, Greenwood, Mohawk, Pompano Park, & Cloverdale
Won two legs of the Pacing Triple crown - the Cane Pace and Messenger Pace in 1982
Won the Canadian Pacing Triple Crown, Canadian Pacing Derby, Prix d'Ete, Provincial Cup, World Cup, American-National, U.S. Pacing Championship, Mohawk Gold Cup, & Frank Ryan Memorial.
From the Canadian Hall of Fame:
His wins at age three included the Cane Pace, Queen City Pace (now called the North America Cup), Monticello-OTB Classic, Prix d’Ete, Messenger, Provincial Cup and the Confederation Cup. At four his 30 wins in 36 starts included the Stewart Fraser Memorial, Canadian Pacing Derby, B.C. Classic, World Cup, Graduate and Driscoll Series, Frank Ryan Memorial, American-National Maturity, Blue Bonnets Challenge Cup, Mohawk Gold Cup and U.S. Pacing Championships at Roosevelt and Sportsmans Park.
Retired to stud in New Jersey, Cam Fella became one of the greatest progenitors in the history of the standardbred horse. He sired 1,002 foals. His offspring accumulated $106.9 million and included 16 winners of at least $1 million and 268 performers that earned $100,000 or more. His millionaires include Eternal Camnation, Presidential Ball, Cams Card Shark, Precious Bunny and Camluck. His daughters proved to be prolific producers as well. Jennas Beach Boy (p,4, 1:47.3) and winner of $1.9 million is out of one of Cam’s daughters. Cam’s stud career ended in 1997 when he had to be gelded because of cancer. To ensure that Cam Fella’s “unparalleled contributions to the sport are never forgotten,” Standardbred Canada established “The Cam Fella Award” to recognize extreme effort and dedication to Canadian harness racing by an individual or group.
BUT...none of it means anything. He only went in 153.1
He'd get beat by every 10 claimer at the Meadowlands and Woodbine/Mohawk.
today's race bikes and drivers and he's a 47-48 pacer.
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today's race bikes and drivers and he's a 47-48 pacer.
Prove it, oh right, YOU CAN'T.
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Prove it, oh right, YOU CAN'T.
Very true.
Same way that no one can prove Karl would even break 2:00 on the trot back then.
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Very true.
Same way that no one can prove Karl would even break 2:00 on the trot back then.
He trots in 1:50 and change. That is the only fact moron.
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wow...anyone that thinks time is the biggest factor never watched Cam Fella or On the Road Again or any really good horses, they went fast enough to win.
Its all about class, class will overcome speed.....Steady Star time trialed in '52 and got beat by a mid level horse in his next start.
When its time to 'hear the music' class shows.
Perhaps 'Karl' is the class of his group..but they aren't an overly impressive group.
Biggest factor.....and ONLY factor.....don't leave that part out. Also, anyone who thinks that could not have seen any truly great horses race, because they were too busy watching the teletimer. People who look at teletimers and say it's the only factor, do so because they have to. It's the only thing they can look at because it's the only thing they are capable of looking at. When you know little, more applicably nothing about horses, you look at something that is purely objective.
I guess class may have had something to do with Karl getting beat by what? An average horse? Well, he got beat by a horse that certainly would not be on anyone's GOAT list. Karl, on a GOAT list. This is what the sport has come to. Top 10? Top 20? Top 50? I guess it doesn't matter. By the way folks, just remember the teletimer.....may be you should only look at the teletimer BEFORE you bet your money. Then look at the teletimer AFTER. Don't worry, you'll have a lot less money to look at.
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Thanks for making my point. Like I said, the only fact is time. All the other things you mentioned are maybe and probably. Equipment, medications, track surface are all subjective. Is today's bike 2 seconds faster, 3 seconds faster, 4 seconds faster. Is today's track surface 2 seconds faster, 3 seconds faster, 4 seconds faster. If you want to debate all those variables, have at it. I'm dealing with the only fact in horse racing and that is time. FACT..Cam Fella was a 1:53 pacer.
In the mid 90's, I had a nice 2 year old trotter who was very consistent. I bought a new modified bike and the times dropped 2 seconds consistently.
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A guy once said the only thing used to determine how great a horse is, is the teletimer.
Ergo……
Karl dreams about being as good as Plunge Blue Chip one day.
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Cam Fella won more races in one year than todays studs end their total starts careers with.
Todays horses are 1 mile dash horses, drugged to the gills, point them and go. Even if todays trainers has SOME SKILLS at training a horse for 2 or 3 heats the horses couldnt take it. The great trainers can still get it done but it takes a special horse.
If they pulled random races for a 3 day detention barn you would see lots of horses, if not most, go very flat miles if they were not scratched first.
tmbz1
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Biggest factor.....and ONLY factor.....don't leave that part out. Also, anyone who thinks that could not have seen any truly great horses race, because they were too busy watching the teletimer. People who look at teletimers and say it's the only factor, do so because they have to. It's the only thing they can look at because it's the only thing they are capable of looking at. When you know little, more applicably nothing about horses, you look at something that is purely objective.
I guess class may have had something to do with Karl getting beat by what? An average horse? Well, he got beat by a horse that certainly would not be on anyone's GOAT list. Karl, on a GOAT list. This is what the sport has come to. Top 10? Top 20? Top 50? I guess it doesn't matter. By the way folks, just remember the teletimer.....may be you should only look at the teletimer BEFORE you bet your money. Then look at the teletimer AFTER. Don't worry, you'll have a lot less money to look at.
Who decides which horse has class and which horse doesn't jerkoff. Are you the authority? All I have posted is a horse's time is the only fact regarding a horse's performance. Everything else is subjective including where they finish because assholes like you would then say that they didn't beat anything. I also posted that all those horses that were mentioned were great champions but of course, that is never posted when replying in your sarcastic and I am superior to everyone else attitude. You may have several idiots on this board impressed with your bullshit but not I. I see an insecure little man that is screaming, Look at me, I know this guy and I know that guy and I did this blah blah blah. You are an egomaniac plain and simple. Keep on hiding behind a screen name. You are full of shit in many eyes until you reveal yourself so people can assess who you are.
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Who decides which horse has class and which horse doesn't jerkoff. Are you the authority? All I have posted is a horse's time is the only fact regarding a horse's performance. Everything else is subjective including where they finish because assholes like you would then say that they didn't beat anything. I also posted that all those horses that were mentioned were great champions but of course, that is never posted when replying in your sarcastic and I am superior to everyone else attitude. You may have several idiots on this board impressed with your bullshit but not I. I see an insecure little man that is screaming, Look at me, I know this guy and I know that guy and I did this blah blah blah. You are an egomaniac plain and simple. Keep on hiding behind a screen name. You are full of shit in many eyes until you reveal yourself so people can assess who you are.
Karl...one of the greatest trotters of all time.
Karl, the greatest trotter of all time.
Karl, on the the greatest trotters of all time list.
Doesn't matter what you say, how you say it, semantics, teletimers, whatever.
Just go and repeat it to yourself. Slowly. Over and over again. Concentrate. Countless times. Over the course of a substantial period of time. Keep doing it. Try. Really hard. It won't be easy. I wish you good luck and all the best. I hope you get through this.
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Karl...one of the greatest trotters of all time.
Karl, the greatest trotter of all time.
Karl, on the the greatest trotters of all time list.
Doesn't matter what you say, how you say it, semantics, teletimers, whatever.
Just go and repeat it to yourself. Slowly. Over and over again. Countless times. Over the course of a substantial period of time. Keep doing it. Try. Really hard. It won't be easy. I wish you good luck and all the best. I hope you get through this.
Never said any of those sentences and you know I didn't. You're a coward and probably a liar. You don't fool me, loser.
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Never said any of those sentences and you know I didn't. You're a coward and probably a liar. You don't fool me, loser.
The only loser on here is you dumb fuck. This thread is 12 pages long now and there is 1 lame comment on page 3 that agrees with you. ONE comment out of 12 pages. Go through and reread if you're capable. You are either extremely stupid or really ignorant...Probab ly both. Those horses of the past that you scoffed at because of their lifetime mark made millions of dollars 30 or 40 years ago. That is a FACT. What would that be in today's money? But I doubt a dipshit like you who suggests to move the triple crown races,which nobody else agrees with would understand basic economics. .Yeah super move the jug to Saturday and today compete with the biggest race card at Parx, Aqueduct, Churchill, Millions of dollars of purses at Mohawk etc.. what a wonderful idea.. Maybe we could get the regulars on the Ohio fair circuit to drive the jug horses since they are at Mohawk tonight. Well maybe next Saturday oh no that wouldn't work all the good horses are in Lexington. It's a good thing you aren't connected to anybody in harness racing or all the tracks would be closed by now.
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Mack Lobell 52.1 in an old wood Gerald with no quick hitch has to be 48-49 mile at worst.
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Pre quick hitch, and pre any of the other technological advantages.
What about the wheels?
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Thanks for making my point. Like I said, the only fact is time. All the other things you mentioned are maybe and probably. Equipment, medications, track surface are all subjective. Is today's bike 2 seconds faster, 3 seconds faster, 4 seconds faster. Is today's track surface 2 seconds faster, 3 seconds faster, 4 seconds faster. If you want to debate all those variables, have at it. I'm dealing with the only fact in horse racing and that is time. FACT..Cam Fella was a 1:53 pacer.
FYI, time has different connotations in different eras!
A big difference between racing in the 1970's through today 2024.
Better and lighter race bikes (off-center sulkies go faster), Lasix was in its infancy and growing popular as time went on. Better food and medical advances and perhaps better improved training methods. Banked turns for more speed too!
1.53 was a great mark in the 1980's and made 2 million dollars too for Cam Fella! Look at the horse and his accolades--the big and prestigious races that he won. It got Cam Fella into the breeding shed and look at his influence on the sport!
FYI, in reality, money in the bank for the owners is the most important issue! They don't put the time of the race on the check!
Please learn the game, MIKE!
What does it accomplish to continue your name-calling, nastiness, et al here on horseplop?
We all see your immaturuity that you don't play well with others when others don't agree with you!
Please stop your WHINING here and grow up and learn to respect others and their opinions here!
Again, this is only horseplop! A part of our lives but not the most important part of our lives!
What's it like to be the 'punching bag' of horseplop MIKE?
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Mack Lobell 52.1 in an old wood Gerald with no quick hitch has to be 48-49 mile at worst.
You can't prove that.
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The only loser on here is you dumb fuck. This thread is 12 pages long now and there is 1 lame comment on page 3 that agrees with you. ONE comment out of 12 pages. Go through and reread if you're capable. You are either extremely stupid or really ignorant...Probab ly both. Those horses of the past that you scoffed at because of their lifetime mark made millions of dollars 30 or 40 years ago. That is a FACT. What would that be in today's money? But I doubt a dipshit like you who suggests to move the triple crown races,which nobody else agrees with would understand basic economics. .Yeah super move the jug to Saturday and today compete with the biggest race card at Parx, Aqueduct, Churchill, Millions of dollars of purses at Mohawk etc.. what a wonderful idea.. Maybe we could get the regulars on the Ohio fair circuit to drive the jug horses since they are at Mohawk tonight. Well maybe next Saturday oh no that wouldn't work all the good horses are in Lexington. It's a good thing you aren't connected to anybody in harness racing or all the tracks would be closed by now.
You're confusing me with someone who gives a fuck what you think.
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You can't prove that.
Many of us know better than you!
SAD BUT TRUE!
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You're confusing me with someone who gives a fuck what you think.
Here we go again!
More 'WHINING' and "CRYING"
SO SAD!
LAY DOWN MIKE, PLEASE LAY DOWN!
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None of you morons have been able to prove anything. If you were a 1:53 trotter or pacer in the 70's or 80's, that is what you were. You can circle jerk each other for another 100 pages about how a different sulky, different track surface, better nutrition would have made those horses faster today but YOU CAN'T PROVE IT TO BE FACTUAL. All you are posting is opinions and unfortunately, you guys are a bunch of idiots and your opinions hold no fucking water. I didn't post an opinion, only 1 fact which is the time of the race. Doesn't it just suck to think you are right but you can't prove it. ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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None of you morons have been able to prove anything. If you were a 1:53 trotter or pacer in the 70's or 80's, that is what you were. You can circle jerk each other for another 100 pages about how a different sulky, different track surface, better nutrition would have made those horses faster today but YOU CAN'T PROVE IT TO BE FACTUAL. All you are posting is opinions and unfortunately, you guys are a bunch of idiots and your opinions hold no fucking water. I didn't post an opinion, only 1 fact which is the time of the race. Doesn't it just suck to think you are right but you can't prove it. ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
Doesn't have to be PROVEN!
A little common sense goes a long way! FYI, something you lack!
Please learn the game MIKE!
LAY DOWN MIKE, PLEASE LAY DOWN!!
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Y'all talkin wheels, quick hitch, wooden bikes and etc.. but remember back then the Arm n Hammer was notoriously used unlike today.. it was a 2-3 second enhancer, if today's top horses were shaked they'd be trotting in 47.!! Different eras cannot be compared.
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Mike- I agree on sticking to facts so let me just interrupt this post with my facts
Fact— despite breeding the best studs and mares over the last 50 years in THbreds- no horse has beaten the Triple Crown times of Secretariat so the Evolutionary principals you referred to earlier must not be working too well there
Now in Standardbreds Muscle Hill went 1.50.1 in 2009. Hasn’t been beaten yet- so that’s 15 years evolution hasn’t quite kicked in yet.
So the fact remains that Karl hasn’t beaten who I consider to be the GOAT of 3yo trotters-Time — nor has he been unbeaten at 3 and beaten everyone that lined up against him like MHILL did. Also when Muscle Gill went 1.50.1 he did that under v little urging and Sears has said he wasn’t going for any records and if he pushed him he would have gone under 1.50. Not a fact I know but I saw the race was there and can confirm he was capable of going faster.
Only way your theory about Karl being a GOAT coming to fruition is that he starts dominating the current tritters and starts breaking records— so a theory about Karl remains just that— a theory.
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I will give you one thing i do know for sure. Mack Lobell was loaded with Equipoise as were all Chuckie's horses. Equipoise was very prevalent back then.
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my 2 cents probably not worth 1 cent..... the best trotters i have seen are scarlett knight,varenne,muscle hill,bold eagle. karl very good wouldnt make my top 10
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Doesn't have to be PROVEN!
A little common sense goes a long way! FYI, something you lack!
Please learn the game MIKE!
LAY DOWN MIKE, PLEASE LAY DOWN!!
I would think, and most people would argue subjectively, that common sense certainly has a part in this. However, certainly more objectively, is knowledge about horses. Knowing what you are looking at when watching horses race is all about not how fast a horse is doing something, but how he/she is doing what he/she is doing----doing it easy, all-out, gait, efficiency, pace, versatility, trip, game, not game, soundness, and so on and so on. There are countless elements you look at while watching a horse, and a horse race.
It's easy to watch Karl win the Hambo, look at the teletimer, and say he won, he's the best horse----in that race, that day. How that equates to GOAT I have absolutely no idea, LOL. I still confidently say that adding him to any GOAT list is rather imprudent and thoughtless. But, he won. So, that race, that day? In the division? For the year? Put him on a GOAT list? No. On the other hand, if you know what you are looking at, know about horses, are a good judge of horses, races, understand horse racing, etc.----his victory becomes very different. Did he get lucky? Did he trip out? Did the race go his way? Now, if you are the owner, what would you care, you still got the check and the check cleared! LOL.
So, I guess you could arrive at the conclusion that perhaps if you don't have common sense, then you can't really have the intellect, knowledge, capacity, etc., to really know about horses and horseracing.
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Y'all talkin wheels, quick hitch, wooden bikes and etc.. but remember back then the Arm n Hammer was notoriously used unlike today.. it was a 2-3 second enhancer, if today's top horses were shaked they'd be trotting in 47.!! Different eras cannot be compared.
So, goes the milkshaking negate the technological advancement of the equipment? As far as the different eras aspect, I absolutely agree with this. However, when I hear Bob Marks put Bret Hanover and Somebeachsomewher e on his pacers GOAT list, it's not comparing the two. The conversation is not the point. It is his judgment, assessment, his opinion on horses, what each one did, the crop, what they had done, AND how they did it, their talent, ability, capabilities, toughness, heart, taking EVERYTHING into consideration (and NOT the teletimer) and the qualified opinion that each horse was one of the GOAT he has seen. Qualified opinion. I keep landing back at one absolute though. Karl on a GOAT list? No. Zero chance.
Case in point, Cayster. Gene Kurzrok wanted to sell her. I think he bought her back out of the International Sale for $250k. He wanted some crazy number. He ended up selling her privately to Phil Tully. She raced more, and was sold to European connections. She was worth big money as a broodmare (at the time). Now, if someone put Cayster on their list of GOAT trotters, sure, you're entitled to your opinion. Great trotter. World Champion (at the time). But I would respectfully say it's easy to throw around the word great like I just did, but that doesn't get you anywhere near a GOAT list. So, if you put Cayster on your GOAT list, respectfully, that speaks to what you know about horses, your opinion, and so on.
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my 2 cents probably not worth 1 cent..... the best trotters i have seen are scarlett knight,varenne,muscle hill,bold eagle. karl very good wouldnt make my top 10
How about this....a penny for your thoughts....and everyone always gives their 2 cents....so where's the extra penny? LOL.
Would Karl make your top 20 GOAT? Not mine.
Bold Eagle...hell of a horse! I don't think I mentioned him in any of my posts on trotters and that's a mistake! Thanks for bringing him him. What a campaign that horse had and raced as a 9yo. After an amazing career throughout Europe, he showed up in Canada and won the Breeders Crown! Hell of a horse!
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I would think, and most people would argue subjectively, that common sense certainly has a part in this. However, certainly more objectively, is knowledge about horses. Knowing what you are looking at when watching horses race is all about not how fast a horse is doing something, but how he/she is doing what he/she is doing----doing it easy, all-out, gait, efficiency, pace, versatility, trip, game, not game, soundness, and so on and so on. There are countless elements you look at while watching a horse, and a horse race.
It's easy to watch Karl win the Hambo, look at the teletimer, and say he won, he's the best horse----in that race, that day. How that equates to GOAT I have absolutely no idea, LOL. I still confidently say that adding him to any GOAT list is rather imprudent and thoughtless. But, he won. So, that race, that day? In the division? For the year? Put him on a GOAT list? No. On the other hand, if you know what you are looking at, know about horses, are a good judge of horses, races, understand horse racing, etc.----his victory becomes very different. Did he get lucky? Did he trip out? Did the race go his way? Now, if you are the owner, what would you care, you still got the check and the check cleared! LOL.
So, I guess you could arrive at the conclusion that perhaps if you don't have common sense, then you can't really have the intellect, knowledge, capacity, etc., to really know about horses and horseracing.
IMO Bold Eagle and Varenne were better than any trotter we have had.
Europeans are usually better over all. They have been coming here for years and except for one or two instances, They are tougher.
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There is no chance Karl is in the top 20 of all-time.
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Talking to educated old timers as i was to young when this horse raced and watching you tube races i would say that French trotting filly UNE DE MAI was the best and no driver that ive seen looked worse than him also when she retired they paraded her every where,,,,,,,,,,, Verenne would be right up there and Ideal de gazeau,,,,,,,,,,,
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Watch this video--this is what a GOAT looks like.
Goes 1.50(track Record) on a 5/8 parked every step of the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuksGnAi6gY&t=123s
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Talking to educated old timers as i was to young when this horse raced and watching you tube races i would say that French trotting filly UNE DE MAI was the best and no driver that ive seen looked worse than him also when she retired they paraded her every where,,,,,,,,,,, Verenne would be right up there and Ideal de gazeau,,,,,,,,,,,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCeX__IV264
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Thank you GRANDSTAND as i have never seen that race and the driver looked worse than in other races,,,,,,,,,,,REALLY REALLY enjoyed that thanks again,,,,,,,,
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Watch this video--this is what a GOAT looks like.
Goes 1.50(track Record) on a 5/8 parked every step of the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuksGnAi6gY&t=123s
I guess 150 satisfies the teletimer theory, and on a 5/8ths track!
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Thank you GRANDSTAND as i have never seen that race and the driver looked worse than in other races,,,,,,,,,,,REALLY REALLY enjoyed that thanks again,,,,,,,,
You're very welcome.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWmTphbRtjM
Listen, I know it's only 51 and 1.....but, come on.
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i remember like yesterday they interviewed the trainer of varenne and he cockily said 51,52 it dont matter im good. this was 2001! as for bold eagle i watched alot of sweden racing and when he came for breeders crown i told anyone who would listen he will win for fun.still cant believe he went off so high
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How about this one.....Grades Singing!
When she retired only Peace Corps had won more money and Grades Singing didn't have any big money races as a 2yo. Over the span of her career, she went on to win three Breeders Crowns. Three! And seven world records! Do you think we should let Karl race in one BC first? Nah, even if he wins, he's not on any respectable person's GOAT list.
Now, ready for this.....as a 4yo.....at Yonkers.....SHE BEAT PACERS! Anyone remember this? Now, if you don't believe this, before you claim it isn't true.....like George Berkner training Goalie Jeff.....you might want to check this out.....unless you have an aversion to being wrong.
She won 20 of 25 at three, including multiple NYSS, about ten Quebec Circuit Stakes, and the CTA Championship. At four, she raced 41 times, finishing first-second 34 times, winning the Maple Leaf Trot, the American Trotting Classic, the World Cup (with a world record) and the Breeders Crown. As a 5yo, she was sold overseas, and in her overseas campaign spanned several years where she won the Elitlopp, the Premio Gaetano Turilli, the Gran Premio della Lotteria, and the Prize of Nations, the Vermo Cup and the Finlandia, and the the Prijs de Giganten, which was the most prestigious race in Holland. She came back to Canada, won another Breeders Crown, and by the time she retired she had 148 starts in nine countries.
Sorry, I forgot this thread was about Karl being one of the greatest of all time.
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I guess 150 satisfies the teletimer theory, and on a 5/8ths track!
MIKE hasn't posted is a while now (at least 1 page)!
Does this mean that this thread is 'finally' over?
I'm going to miss my personal "punching bag" here!
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I sent an email to Bob Marks and asked him his trotting GOAT list.
He said the following:
"Muscle Hill is the best I ever saw, after that Speedy Scott, Roquepine, Un De Mai, Mack Lobell, Oursasi, Moni Maker, and some that you named. Self Possessed is somewhere on the list as is Walner"
I don't think Bob has the built in bias someone like Murray Brown has, although I respect Bob's opinion about a million times more than Murray's. I always look for bias. I don't think Bob has any. He worked for Perretti for a long time, and Boardwalk before that. If he has a bias, maybe, just maybe it would be because he admired Ron Gurfein, but I don't know if that is true.
So, he gave 9. In my email to him -- I named 5 to my GOAT list -- Varenne, Ourasi, Moni Maker, Mack Lobell, and Muscle Hill. The others I mentioned I posed to him as a question, as I was trying to prompt additional insight from him. I was also interested in his perspective on horses of different eras. Those horses were:
Ideal Du Gazeau
Lutin d’Isigny
Delmonica Hanover
Nevele Pride
Une de Mai
Commander Crowe
Bold Eagle
Donato Hanover
Deweycheatumnhowe
Scarlet Knight
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We had a FFA horse here in TORONTO called CRYSTAL LENS who was super lame and he had four legs move in different directions but i would have loved to see him sound,,,,,,,,,,,He was a super high priced horse out of a world champion mare and was sold for a small amount as an older horse but was he fast
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We had a FFA horse here in TORONTO called CRYSTAL LENS who was super lame and he had four legs move in different directions but i would have loved to see him sound,,,,,,,,,,,He was a super high priced horse out of a world champion mare and was sold for a small amount as an older horse but was he fast
San Pail was a nice one from the Toronto area.
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San pail was a great horse considering the trainers record as i can not remember one horse he ever made money with,,,,,,,,,,,,,But it was not a great era for trotters,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,He was still great......
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How about this one.....Grades Singing!
When she retired only Peace Corps had won more money and Grades Singing didn't have any big money races as a 2yo. Over the span of her career, she went on to win three Breeders Crowns. Three! And seven world records! Do you think we should let Karl race in one BC first? Nah, even if he wins, he's not on any respectable person's GOAT list.
Now, ready for this.....as a 4yo.....at Yonkers.....SHE BEAT PACERS! Anyone remember this? Now, if you don't believe this, before you claim it isn't true.....like George Berkner training Goalie Jeff.....you might want to check this out.....unless you have an aversion to being wrong.
She won 20 of 25 at three, including multiple NYSS, about ten Quebec Circuit Stakes, and the CTA Championship. At four, she raced 41 times, finishing first-second 34 times, winning the Maple Leaf Trot, the American Trotting Classic, the World Cup (with a world record) and the Breeders Crown. As a 5yo, she was sold overseas, and in her overseas campaign spanned several years where she won the Elitlopp, the Premio Gaetano Turilli, the Gran Premio della Lotteria, and the Prize of Nations, the Vermo Cup and the Finlandia, and the the Prijs de Giganten, which was the most prestigious race in Holland. She came back to Canada, won another Breeders Crown, and by the time she retired she had 148 starts in nine countries.
Sorry, I forgot this thread was about Karl being one of the greatest of all time.
👍👍👍she was one tough mare. Todays horses could never stand those 2 and 3 year old numbers. Most are “managed” for breeding. When you play not to get beat , you lose..
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How about this one.....Grades Singing!
When she retired only Peace Corps had won more money and Grades Singing didn't have any big money races as a 2yo. Over the span of her career, she went on to win three Breeders Crowns. Three! And seven world records! Do you think we should let Karl race in one BC first? Nah, even if he wins, he's not on any respectable person's GOAT list.
Now, ready for this.....as a 4yo.....at Yonkers.....SHE BEAT PACERS! Anyone remember this? Now, if you don't believe this, before you claim it isn't true.....like George Berkner training Goalie Jeff.....you might want to check this out.....unless you have an aversion to being wrong.
She won 20 of 25 at three, including multiple NYSS, about ten Quebec Circuit Stakes, and the CTA Championship. At four, she raced 41 times, finishing first-second 34 times, winning the Maple Leaf Trot, the American Trotting Classic, the World Cup (with a world record) and the Breeders Crown. As a 5yo, she was sold overseas, and in her overseas campaign spanned several years where she won the Elitlopp, the Premio Gaetano Turilli, the Gran Premio della Lotteria, and the Prize of Nations, the Vermo Cup and the Finlandia, and the the Prijs de Giganten, which was the most prestigious race in Holland. She came back to Canada, won another Breeders Crown, and by the time she retired she had 148 starts in nine countries.
Sorry, I forgot this thread was about Karl being one of the greatest of all time.
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I never knew about this incredibly great mare here are her unreal stats. 98 out of 115 first or second 105 out of 115 top 3! Plus all those High level stakes. Oh my.
Starts 1st 2nd 3rd Money Gait Age Time Track
Life: 115 81 17 7 $2,190,872 T 4 1:57 F PPK F
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San Pail was a great horse, and I am not taking anything whatsoever away from him, his accomplishments, nor his career. He performed on the highest level over a substantial period of time----by North American standards----here in North America. He might be the greatest North American based trotter of this generation. However, as I said in a previous post, I would not have him on my GOAT list. He dominated Canadian trotting, and beat NA's best when he won the BC. However, that is a far, very far distance from a GOAT list. Compare what he did over his career with what the other truly greats did.
Sure, Canadians will tell you he's one of the greatest of all time, but they are without question not looking worldwide and history wide. Top drivers of today have never even seen Varenne, Ourasi, Moni Maker, Peace Corps, Mack Lobell, and the others.
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👍👍👍she was one tough mare. Todays horses could never stand those 2 and 3 year old numbers. Most are “managed” for breeding. When you play not to get beat , you lose..
IIRC, she had something like 20 starts as a 2yo. She wasn't staked to anything outside Quebec and she ran in every Quebec stakes, Lotto/Perfecta, series, etc., they could pay into.
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I never knew about this incredibly great mare here are her unreal stats. 98 out of 115 first or second 105 out of 115 top 3! Plus all those High level stakes. Oh my.
Starts 1st 2nd 3rd Money Gait Age Time Track
Life: 115 81 17 7 $2,190,872 T 4 1:57 F PPK F
105 out of 115 starts she was 1-2-3!!! And guess what.....she raced a lot on half-mile tracks!
About 92% of her lifetime starts-----115 of them----she was 1-2-3. That is truly amazing. I can see someone leaving her off a GOAT list, but not because she is not deserving. More because there are others who might be more deserving. To each their own. But it would not be a shock at all if she appeared on anyone's GOAT list. Someone told me the first time Ronnie Gurfein saw her live, at YR, he said she was a beast and that no horse might ever beat her, but a trip, a break, something out of the ordinary would have to happen. Herve drove her a lot. He really loved her.
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She was a super horse but i have seen better but she was great,,,,,,,,,,,A great story about this horse was that when she went to SWEEDEN to race under GOOP she went real bad and they brought her groom over from quebec and the horse loved life again and she was paid well,,,
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She was a super horse but i have seen better but she was great,,,,,,,,,,,A great story about this horse was that when she went to SWEEDEN to race under GOOP she went real bad and they brought her groom over from quebec and the horse loved life again and she was paid well,,,
Without question she was a great horse. I wouldn't be shocked if she was left off someone's top 10 GOAT list, but not because she wasn't great, more because others were "greater" and more deserving with their accomplishments (vs. hers). OTOH, I wouldn't be shocked if I saw her near the bottom of someone's top 10 GOAT list. It's not just her "stats" line that was amazing, but she really did accomplish a lot, I mean, three BC's ---- 1986 with Herve, 1987 with Olle Goop, and again in 1989 with Olle Goop ---- and she didn't race in the 1988 Breeders Crown. Let's not forget, she won the Elitlopp too! LOL.
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How about this one.....Grades Singing!
Grades Singing wins Breeders Crown 1989
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGtQFBe5TBU
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Race is over and official. Karl is no all time great. Fast lame horse. Only chance is to go to Burke for lameness miracle resurection like Bythemissal.
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The teletimer is the only FACT when judging a horse's performance. I need a good laugh. Name something else factual and not subjective about judging the performance of a racehorse.
Indeed it is Sig Sauer 149.3.. Karl 150.2 I just reread alot of this thread and it's hilarious ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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If they quit with him, turn him out, and bring him back next year...you will see what kind of horse he is. I think he'd be a legit horse, and I don't know who is coming back next year, but with 2 breeders owning him, I don't think he's coming back. He is not one of the GOAT. Never was. Never will be. Nice horse. Accomplished a lot. But he doesn't even look like a major contender now. I wonder if they can get him moving in the right direction for the BC.
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Indeed it is Sig Sauer 149.3.. Karl 150.2 I just reread alot of this thread and it's hilarious ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
ACE 12 - The Red Mile - KY - October 6, 2024
Conditions: 132nd KENTUCKY FUTURITY 3 YEAR OLD HORSE & GELDING ENTRY FEE - $7500
Gait: TrotPurse: 500,000Class: KY FUTDistance: 1 mileTrack Cond: FTTemp-Allow: 83-0Off Time: 5:30 PM (Detention Sat 4:40 PM)
Pick 4 (9-12) $20K
HN Horse PP 1/4 1/2 3/4 Str Finish Actual LQ Odds Driver Trainer
8 Sig Sauer
3, Muscle Hill-Sigilwig 8 5°/4T 4°/4 2°/1 1/2H 1/T 1:49.3 28.2 9.59 Andrew McCarthy Noel Daley
4 Amazing Catch
3, Walner-Mets Life 4 4/3 5/5 8°/6T 4/2T 2/T 1:49.4 27.2 14.12 James Macdonald Ake Svanstedt
9 Bella`s Musclehill
3, Muscle Hill-Barn Bella 9 9/11 9/10T 9/7T 7/5 3/2 1:50.0 27.2 130.70 David Miller R. Nifty Norman
7 Mr Bluebird
3, Six Pack-
Goosebump Hanover 7 8/8H 8/8T 4°/2H 5/3T 4/3T 1:50.2 29.0 88.37 Ake Svanstedt Ake Svanstedt
11 Karl
3, Tactical Landing-
Avalicious [11 7°/6T 6°/5H 3°/2 3/2H 5/4 1:50.2 29.0 2.18 Yannick Gingras Nancy Takter
1 Wild Ticket
3, Chapter Seven-
On The Wild Side 1 6/6Q 7/7 6/4T 6/4T 6/5Q 1:50.3 28.3 149.30 Todd McCarthy Marcus Melander
10 Security Protected
3, Father Patrick-
Thatsnotmyname 10 10/12H 10/12H 10/11T 8/9 7/8 1:51.1 27.4 81.69 Scott Zeron Marcus Melander
3 Highland Kismet
3, Father Patrick-
Highland Top Hill 3 1°/1 2/1H 1/1 2/2H 8/9T 1:51.3 30.3 *1.82 Bob McClure Mark Etsell
2 Dame Good Time
3, Chapter Seven-
Dame Du Lac 2 2/1 3/3 5/4Q 9/17 9/25H 1:54.3 32.4 29.80 Tim Tetrick Travis Alexander
6 Tony Adams S
3, Muscle Hill-
Dreamgirl Hornline 6 3°/2 1/1H 7/5T 10/27 10/DIS 2.85 Dexter Dunn Ake Svanstedt
5 Secret Agent Man
3, Chapter Seven-
Feel The Magic 5X 11/32H 11/DIS 11/DIS 11/DIS 11/DIS 15.08 Andy Miller Julie Miller
Time: 26.3 52.4 (26.1) 1:21.0 (28.1) 1:49.3 (28.3)
NO EXCUSES for KARL after this race! Raced mid pack with extremely fast fractions, followed the eventual and came up EMPTY!
Where is 'IRON MIKE CAMPBELL' now?
FYI, he hasn't posted in 2 weeks, and this will not make him happy IF he reads this thread!
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I couldn't care less if someone picks a horse and says he's going to be one of the GOAT, and the horse flops, falters, whatever. So what. It's an opinion. Educated or not, informed or not, qualified or not, it's an opinion.....that and $5 gets you a fancy cup of coffee at Starbucks, LOL. Play games of semantics, insult people, name call, bully people, be nothing but a source of negativity and wasted band-width, then good riddance.
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I couldn't care less if someone picks a horse and says he's going to be one of the GOAT, and the horse flops, falters, whatever. So what. It's an opinion. Educated or not, informed or not, qualified or not, it's an opinion.....that and $5 gets you a fancy cup of coffee at Starbucks, LOL. Play games of semantics, insult people, name call, bully people, be nothing but a source of negativity and wasted band-width, then good riddance.
What is Karl's 'stud fee' now after this race?
FYI, I totally agree with your last sentence of this post! I hope others do too!
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What is Karl's 'stud fee' now after this race?
FYI, I totally agree with your last sentence of this post! I hope others do too!
I think I was the only person who said his stud fee would be $10k on the low side to $15k on the high side, and that was before today and before he got beat in the 3 weeks ago. Maybe, in addition to everything else, he was a bit short today due to the 3 weeks off. I don't know. I know plenty of breeders, intimately well. They just don't breed and buy "accolades" and stats, teletimers, etc. Every major breeder saw him in the Hambo. They saw him prior to the Hambo. And they've seen him since. He was not going to be a $25k stud. No way. Crawford would breed to him and support him, but that's because he owns him! LOL. I don't know how much Bender would support him and breed to him. Anyway, after today, you have to see if he races or skips the BC. If he's sound, and good, they'll race him. If he spits the bit and does nothing, he could still be a 10k stallion. If he turns around and wins, it's restoration for him....but even if that happens....he is not one of the GOAT. LOL.
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I think I was the only person who said his stud fee would be $10k on the low side to $15k on the high side, and that was before today and before he got beat in the 3 weeks ago. Maybe, in addition to everything else, he was a bit short today due to the 3 weeks off. I don't know. I know plenty of breeders, intimately well. They just don't breed and buy "accolades" and stats, teletimers, etc. Every major breeder saw him in the Hambo. They saw him prior to the Hambo. And they've seen him since. He was not going to be a $25k stud. No way. Crawford would breed to him and support him, but that's because he owns him! LOL. I don't know how much Bender would support him and breed to him. Anyway, after today, you have to see if he races or skips the BC. If he's sound, and good, they'll race him. If he spits the bit and does nothing, he could still be a 10k stallion. If he turns around and wins, it's restoration for him....but even if that happens....he is not one of the GOAT. LOL.
Does this mean that the syndicate has stopped paying MIKE CAMPBELL for his touting of Karl here on horseplop as well as anywhere else in the harness racing world?
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If he stands, I do think Diamond Creek will set the stud fee higher than what the real market is and support him, try to create a big bang year one with his average, and will try to artificially "create" a market that isn't really there. Kind of like they tried, unsuccessfully, with Ralph Hanover (this topic could take up an entire article----but, while he was a very lazy horse, he was given a very strong chance/opportunity to be a successful stallion, and other than making some fillies, was simply a dud).
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If he stands, I do think Diamond Creek will set the stud fee higher than what the real market is and support him, try to create a big bang year one with his average, and will try to artificially "create" a market that isn't really there. Kind of like they tried, unsuccessfully, with Ralph Hanover (this topic could take up an entire article----but, while he was a very lazy horse, he was given a very strong chance/opportunity to be a successful stallion, and other than making some fillies, was simply a dud).
If memory serves me correctly, Ralph Hanover won the pacing triple crown 1983. I gather the class of 1983 was not that strong and he was in the right place at the right time. Also, if my memory is correct a 7 million dollar syndication fee.
Is part of the difference that a few horses that raced Karl got better at 3 while no horses got better in Ralph’s class at 3?
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if you look at his rerecord karl is a very good horse that anyone would love to own
he is by tactical landing who is producing nice horses and his maternal pedigree is ok( not stellar)
so he certainly could be a successful stallion or not , i guess time will tell
i did find it interesting that bowden and crawford had to make the annoucement that he was goin to stud at diamond creek in 29025 before the futurity, they kind of chocked on that one
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I knew all season long the chances of him racing at 4 was almost zero because you'll make more money as a stallion.
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I find it more along the lines of the high risk of devaluating his legacy. Every loss will now demiinsh his value and demand more than a win will add to it.
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If he stands, I do think Diamond Creek will set the stud fee higher than what the real market is and support him, try to create a big bang year one with his average, and will try to artificially "create" a market that isn't really there. Kind of like they tried, unsuccessfully, with Ralph Hanover (this topic could take up an entire article----but, while he was a very lazy horse, he was given a very strong chance/opportunity to be a successful stallion, and other than making some fillies, was simply a dud).
Yes. I posted on the other thread re: Futurity, it seems to me Diamond Creek routinely sets too high of stud fees starting out. Look at Gimpanzee. No knock against him at all, super nice racehorse, but not dominant and stud fee opening year was $30k. Which dropped to $20k by 2024. They also ran Father Patrick up to $30k at one point, as he is now $10k (though to be fair I don't think he started at $30k).
However, Confederate started at $20k which to me is still a bit high but they cannot possibly set it that high for Karl, Confederate was far more dominant.
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Had they left the breeding to him to be auctioned off and didn’t push, his fee would have been set ($5,000 ??) so it was easier to withdraw him….
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Had they left the breeding to him to be auctioned off and didn’t push, his fee would have been set ($5,000 ??) so it was easier to withdraw him….
Good point. I guess it was optimistic thinking, LOL.
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If memory serves me correctly, Ralph Hanover won the pacing triple crown 1983. I gather the class of 1983 was not that strong and he was in the right place at the right time. Also, if my memory is correct a 7 million dollar syndication fee.
Is part of the difference that a few horses that raced Karl got better at 3 while no horses got better in Ralph’s class at 3?
RH was a pretty good horse. He was owned in part by his trainer Stew Firlotte, and Ron Waples. Off the top of my head, his 3yo class included Jamuga, Ticket To Ride, Glen Almahurst, Skirt Lifter, Joule, Kawartha Robust, Raffi, Allwin Steady, Power Bunny, Sterl Falcon, Fortune Teller, Savvy Almahurst, and other good horses. No GOAT's but good horses, LOL. He raced a lot at 2 with something like 15 starts, and I remember very well when he won the Bluegrass in 54 and 1. He had a hell of a campaign at 3 winning Messenger Stakes, Meadowlands Pace, and the Queen City Pace (which was the predecessor to the NA Cup. In one month, he raced three double-heat races----the Adios, the Cane, and the Prix d'Ete. He then came back and raced in fourth double-heat race, the Oliver Wendell Holmes and finished second by a nose. He then went on to win the LBJ in straight heats.
Yes, he was syndicated by Almahurst Farms for about $7mm. I don't know if it was the rest of the class, but Ralph wasn't a Karl at 2 and 3 scenario. Not IMO. You can argue it was not a strong crop, but he took on whoever showed up, LOL.
Like I said, Karl was absolutely dominant at 2. Heads and shoulders above his classmates. To the uneducated, visually he looked like a man amongst boys, so naturally someone who was not a good judge of horseflesh might get caught up in the "he is one of the GOAT" nonsense. I don't know one expert who thought so----other than maybe Jimmy Takter, LOL.
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RH was a pretty good horse. He was owned in part by his trainer Stew Firlotte, and Ron Waples. Off the top of my head, his 3yo class included Jamuga, Ticket To Ride, Glen Almahurst, Skirt Lifter, Joule, Kawartha Robust, Raffi, Allwin Steady, Power Bunny, Sterl Falcon, Fortune Teller, Savvy Almahurst, and other good horses. No GOAT's but good horses, LOL. He raced a lot at 2 with something like 15 starts, and I remember very well when he won the Bluegrass in 54 and 1. He had a hell of a campaign at 3 winning Messenger Stakes, Meadowlands Pace, and the Queen City Pace (which was the predecessor to the NA Cup. In one month, he raced three double-heat races----the Adios, the Cane, and the Prix d'Ete. He then came back and raced in fourth double-heat race, the Oliver Wendell Holmes and finished second by a nose. He then went on to win the LBJ in straight heats.
Yes, he was syndicated by Almahurst Farms for about $7mm. I don't know if it was the rest of the class, but Ralph wasn't a Karl at 2 and 3 scenario. Not IMO. You can argue it was not a strong crop, but he took on whoever showed up, LOL.
Mr. Grandstand Handicapper.
"Off the top of your head " You say?
To recall that many horses from one age class and that many years ago is IMHO PHENOMENAL.
That must put you in a league with Marilyn Vos Savant.
I envy your memory!
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Mr. Grandstand Handicapper.
"Off the top of your head " You say?
To recall that many horses from one age class and that many years ago is IMHO PHENOMENAL.
That must put you in a league with Marilyn Vos Savant.
I envy your memory!
Lucky and isolated. I think I remember the crop because I was thinking of buying a share in RH and when I do I study the competition tremendously, in detail. I also had a few friends who had horses in that crop. It didn't help that RH kept beating them, LOL. Also, I wanted to buy Savvy Almahurst as 2yo, but Bob McIntosh and his owner didn't want to sell him, LOL.
I just thought about each of the big races and what horses were in them. A few others I just remember. I remember weird stuff, but I forgot what I had for dinner last night, LOL.
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Lucky and isolated. I think I remember the crop because I was thinking of buying a share in RH and when I do I study the competition tremendously, in detail. I also had a few friends who had horses in that crop. It didn't help that RH kept beating them, LOL. Also, I wanted to buy Savvy Almahurst as 2yo, but Bob McIntosh and his owner didn't want to sell him, LOL.
I just thought about each of the big races and what horses were in them. A few others I just remember. I remember weird stuff, but I forgot what I had for dinner last night, LOL.
How are you at Jeopardy?
I watch it most days.
Maybe I should have put you in a league with Ken Jennings?
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How are you at Jeopardy?
I watch it most days.
Maybe I should have put you in a league with Ken Jennings?
Not even close!!! I am telling you, it's hit or miss as to what I remember or draw upon.
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Just curious what kinda of bias you give to a racebike? Karl can't beat 50.3 in a bike that is far in a way lightyrs ahead of the wood Gerald non quick hitch that Mack toted around.
Excellent point! tmbz1 tmbz1 tmbz1