HORSEPLOP.COM
General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: London on October 21, 2024, 06:56:48 PM
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If hes out and was placed 5th..does kismet get in the final???
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He’s out cl meadowlands facebook
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This reminds me of how people keep talking about the Jets and Cowboys. ;D
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https://standardbredcanada.ca/news/10-21-24/karl-bows-out-breeders-crown.html
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If hes out and was placed 5th..does kismet get in the final???
yes
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Mr. Bluebird was other 6th place finisher. Highland Kismet has more money won so based on that he will be in the final if he chooses.
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Interesting...Sig Sauer will be at $8k...and Karl? While the eligible crosses and the types of mares will dictate, no way can they go "low" on Karl. If they do, he'll attract second-tier broodmares. They can't afford that. For the hype, sales, and posturing---they need to hit the right number, but Sig Sauer at $8k sets a bar in the market.
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They gotta go at least 12.5K for Karl and base it on the two-year-old season and the Hambo victory.
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He's got horrible pedigree and he's not even the best of his class. They can promote him all they want but he's 7500 at best until he proves he can sire. No different then sweet lou who stood for 6k I think his first season?
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He's got horrible pedigree and he's not even the best of his class. They can promote him all they want but he's 7500 at best until he proves he can sire. No different then sweet lou who stood for 6k I think his first season?
I don't disagree with you but with Sig Sauer at $8k thre's no way they go lower than that.
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Right now it is not the stud fee but the syndicated price and what the share price will be. Maybe they wont syndicate him and put the fee at $6,000 for approved mares. Then they can sort the mares out.
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I like Sig Sauer but I hope his make offspring are not a handful like he is.
You guys would know more but Anything with Donato Hanover in it on either side, they appear to be a little nasty if Colts, is that correct?
Having said that if I was buying a mare to breed, it would be an Andover Hall or Donato or one of Andover Hall's brothers. They are golden in horses who win big races
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While I only have one broodmare, and I used to have more, I do "invest" in stallion shares. When I look at a stallion, primarily I look at what he does and how he did it on the track. I am looking for, not just a horse, but a special horse. One who is truly great. Of course I look at pedigree as well. However, when I look at the horse and what he did, how he did it, etc.----I look at the entire body of work. His entire career.
While Alan Leavitt has been credited many times for saying 2 year old speed is the single most important factor to a sire, Alan was in fact a walking and living contradiction, LOL. Alan also said, many times, and I personally heard him say it, that, stamina comes from the sire, and speed comes from the dam. Regardless, in looking at Karl as a stallion, you must look at his 2yo year. This is where the debate begins, LOL. Obviously Karl was "the" horse at 2. By "the" horse, I mean he was heads and shoulders ahead of the rest of the class. He was more than dominant. He was the best colt in the class. JMHO.
However, was he the most talented? Not accomplished, but talented? Dig deeper, did he show the most potential? For me, this was a case of Mike Tyson. He was so much better than everything else that it made him look "greater" than he was. It was a visual deception that caused many people to think he was great----and could perhaps be one of the GOAT. Now, that said, not one expert or qualified opinion that I spoke with, not one, ever thought Karl would be one of the GOAT. Not one. I didn't think he was a great colt. I thought he was dominant, best in class, would win everything not nailed down. But he was racing against a bunch of horses who just were well behind in---developmental-wise, maturity-wise, speed-wise, and more. Fast-forward to the 3yo campaign. Argue all you want about Karl regressing, not being sound, etc. However, that aside, the rest of the class caught up to him. They got better, matured, turned the corner, and caught up to him.....and as time went on, whether he was unsound, bled, whatever.....a few of the top horses in the class caught up to him.....and surpassed him. Sure, he wasn't himself, he may have been unsound, not 100%, bled (at some point), etc. But the rest of the 3yo crop, the contenders, they got better, progressed, etc., and he didn't. No offense, and taking nothing away from what the history books will say----he got lucky winning the Hambo. He was not the best horse that day, in that race.
Anyway, Crawford co-owned this horse and had dreams of winning the Hambo since before Karl started his 3yo campaign. He co-owned 2 previous Hambo winners----both fillies! But, now a colt, that's different. I think they are going to be forced into setting his stud fee high---$12,500, or even $15,000---but Sig Sauer at $8,000 does set a mark in the marketplace. If they set Karl at $10,000, or lower, he will attract lower quality mares, mares he would not get at $12.5 or $15k.
Let's see what they do.
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I like Sig Sauer but I hope his make offspring are not a handful like he is.
You guys would know more but Anything with Donato Hanover in it on either side, they appear to be a little nasty if Colts, is that correct?
Having said that if I was buying a mare to breed, it would be an Andover Hall or Donato or one of Andover Hall's brothers. They are golden in horses who win big races
If horses are handful because of their bloodlines, good trainers can turn this negative into a positive by altering their training schedules, equipment changes (different bits in their mouths), and I'm sure other innovative changes.
FYI, when John Simpson Sr. trained Ayres at 2 many years ago, he was very hot. Simpson changed his training methods and taught him how to follow horses which cured a problem and Ayres became a better racehorse because of this.
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Interesting...Sig Sauer will be at $8k...and Karl? While the eligible crosses and the types of mares will dictate, no way can they go "low" on Karl. If they do, he'll attract second-tier broodmares. They can't afford that. For the hype, sales, and posturing---they need to hit the right number, but Sig Sauer at $8k sets a bar in the market.
IMO, the stud fee could determine whether more little people get involved or more big-name commercial breeders.
Even the best stallion prospects have been 'total "duds"' in the breeding shed even with high quality mares.
Good luck to one and all on those individuals that go on this venture.
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While I only have one broodmare, and I used to have more, I do "invest" in stallion shares. When I look at a stallion, primarily I look at what he does and how he did it on the track. I am looking for, not just a horse, but a special horse. One who is truly great. Of course I look at pedigree as well. However, when I look at the horse and what he did, how he did it, etc.----I look at the entire body of work. His entire career.
While Alan Leavitt has been credited many times for saying 2 year old speed is the single most important factor to a sire, Alan was in fact a walking and living contradiction, LOL. Alan also said, many times, and I personally heard him say it, that, stamina comes from the sire, and speed comes from the dam. Regardless, in looking at Karl as a stallion, you must look at his 2yo year. This is where the debate begins, LOL. Obviously Karl was "the" horse at 2. By "the" horse, I mean he was heads and shoulders ahead of the rest of the class. He was more than dominant. He was the best colt in the class. JMHO.
However, was he the most talented? Not accomplished, but talented? Dig deeper, did he show the most potential? For me, this was a case of Mike Tyson. He was so much better than everything else that it made him look "greater" than he was. It was a visual deception that caused many people to think he was great----and could perhaps be one of the GOAT. Now, that said, not one expert or qualified opinion that I spoke with, not one, ever thought Karl would be one of the GOAT. Not one. I didn't think he was a great colt. I thought he was dominant, best in class, would win everything not nailed down. But he was racing against a bunch of horses who just were well behind in---developmental-wise, maturity-wise, speed-wise, and more. Fast-forward to the 3yo campaign. Argue all you want about Karl regressing, not being sound, etc. However, that aside, the rest of the class caught up to him. They got better, matured, turned the corner, and caught up to him.....and as time went on, whether he was unsound, bled, whatever.....a few of the top horses in the class caught up to him.....and surpassed him. Sure, he wasn't himself, he may have been unsound, not 100%, bled (at some point), etc. But the rest of the 3yo crop, the contenders, they got better, progressed, etc., and he didn't. No offense, and taking nothing away from what the history books will say----he got lucky winning the Hambo. He was not the best horse that day, in that race.
Anyway, Crawford co-owned this horse and had dreams of winning the Hambo since before Karl started his 3yo campaign. He co-owned 2 previous Hambo winners----both fillies! But, now a colt, that's different. I think they are going to be forced into setting his stud fee high---$12,500, or even $15,000---but Sig Sauer at $8,000 does set a mark in the marketplace. If they set Karl at $10,000, or lower, he will attract lower quality mares, mares he would not get at $12.5 or $15k.
Let's see what they do.
very well said!
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IMO, the stud fee could determine whether more little people get involved or more big-name commercial breeders.
Even the best stallion prospects have been 'total "duds"' in the breeding shed even with high quality mares.
Good luck to one and all on those individuals that go on this venture.
Agreed. Interestingly, upon further reflection, looking at the current landscape of today's breeding market, ironically, an overwhelming majority of the breed are outcrosses. That may change and there may be some shift or movement in the scale so to speak. However, this does lead to a benefit. It avoids inbreeding, which displays itself in a loss of fertility in stallions. We've seen this happen. Think back to the early 90's when many, very many of the then current trotting stallions were having fertility issues. However, inbreeding can work, when you are talking about the right horses. You have to be a very disciplined breeder, and not look to be too aggressive so to speak. Nothing stronger than 3 x 3.
That said, I am very curious to see the mares that will be bred to Karl, more the second crop than the first. Crawford will support him as best he can, but he can't put all his eggs (eligible mares) in that basket.
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Agreed. Interestingly, upon further reflection, looking at the current landscape of today's breeding market, ironically, an overwhelming majority of the breed are outcrosses. That may change and there may be some shift or movement in the scale so to speak. However, this does lead to a benefit. It avoids inbreeding, which displays itself in a loss of fertility in stallions. We've seen this happen. Think back to the early 90's when many, very many of the then current trotting stallions were having fertility issues. However, inbreeding can work, when you are talking about the right horses. You have to be a very disciplined breeder, and not look to be too aggressive so to speak. Nothing stronger than 3 x 3.
That said, I am very curious to see the mares that will be bred to Karl, more the second crop than the first. Crawford will support him as best he can, but he can't put all his eggs (eligible mares) in that basket.
He is standing at Diamond Creek and this year Diamond Creek has gotten very aggressive in their inbreeding.
No More Losses the dam of Cannibal is in foal to Confederate and Geothermal the dam of Confederate is in foal to Cannibal. Both these crosses represent a 3x2 cross to A Rocknroll Dance.
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While I only have one broodmare, and I used to have more, I do "invest" in stallion shares. When I look at a stallion, primarily I look at what he does and how he did it on the track. I am looking for, not just a horse, but a special horse. One who is truly great. Of course I look at pedigree as well. However, when I look at the horse and what he did, how he did it, etc.----I look at the entire body of work. His entire career.
While Alan Leavitt has been credited many times for saying 2 year old speed is the single most important factor to a sire, Alan was in fact a walking and living contradiction, LOL. Alan also said, many times, and I personally heard him say it, that, stamina comes from the sire, and speed comes from the dam. Regardless, in looking at Karl as a stallion, you must look at his 2yo year. This is where the debate begins, LOL. Obviously Karl was "the" horse at 2. By "the" horse, I mean he was heads and shoulders ahead of the rest of the class. He was more than dominant. He was the best colt in the class. JMHO.
However, was he the most talented? Not accomplished, but talented? Dig deeper, did he show the most potential? For me, this was a case of Mike Tyson. He was so much better than everything else that it made him look "greater" than he was. It was a visual deception that caused many people to think he was great----and could perhaps be one of the GOAT. Now, that said, not one expert or qualified opinion that I spoke with, not one, ever thought Karl would be one of the GOAT. Not one. I didn't think he was a great colt. I thought he was dominant, best in class, would win everything not nailed down. But he was racing against a bunch of horses who just were well behind in---developmental-wise, maturity-wise, speed-wise, and more. Fast-forward to the 3yo campaign. Argue all you want about Karl regressing, not being sound, etc. However, that aside, the rest of the class caught up to him. They got better, matured, turned the corner, and caught up to him.....and as time went on, whether he was unsound, bled, whatever.....a few of the top horses in the class caught up to him.....and surpassed him. Sure, he wasn't himself, he may have been unsound, not 100%, bled (at some point), etc. But the rest of the 3yo crop, the contenders, they got better, progressed, etc., and he didn't. No offense, and taking nothing away from what the history books will say----he got lucky winning the Hambo. He was not the best horse that day, in that race.
Anyway, Crawford co-owned this horse and had dreams of winning the Hambo since before Karl started his 3yo campaign. He co-owned 2 previous Hambo winners----both fillies! But, now a colt, that's different. I think they are going to be forced into setting his stud fee high---$12,500, or even $15,000---but Sig Sauer at $8,000 does set a mark in the marketplace. If they set Karl at $10,000, or lower, he will attract lower quality mares, mares he would not get at $12.5 or $15k.
Let's see what they do.
Question is, at what price would you buy a share and would the stud fee be a factor .
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Question is, at what price would you buy a share and would the stud fee be a factor .
Good question. I really can't say, other than on horseflesh alone, I wouldn't. Regardless of the stud fee. I did not see and did not request a copy of the syndicate agreement. So, I don't know any of the terms, conditions, etc.----one breeding per share, two, any bonus, and if so, who pays, the terms and conditions of the "excess" breedings and how they are being managed/offered, if there will be a pool and if so, how is it managed/split, etc. For me, if I am buying a stallion share----for investment purposes----there has to be certain inherent attributes to the share/syndication. It's all about ROI and how I get money out other than reselling the share. I have to have multiple options for multiple sources of getting money.
Whether it's one breeding per share, or three, regardless of all the other terms and conditions, and regardless of the price. I would still not be a buyer. I don't see any "edge" owning the share. I don't have a mare to breed to him, nor would I be motivated to go out and buy one, LOL. I don't see him being a "raging success" regardless of the stud fee/share price. If they set the stud fee right, and they've already had another hurdle appear in front of them (Sig Sauer at $8k), and they really manage him, position him, and support him correctly, properly, etc.----he can be a good stallion, economically sound, and yes, profitable. It won't be a grand slam or even a home run IMO. But they can---and I think they will---do well.
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For what Adam paid to buy 70% of Karl there is virtually no way to make money.
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They have to give him some real support, I'm sure his list of mares will be fantastic, the marketing will be fantastic. After you see the list, check next year, and see how many were actually bred to him. Second year too. I sure wouldn't want to take my best mares to him. I can't see him as a bargain stud, they'll never have a shot to get out if they make him look cheap.
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Did they announce whether he's standing in PA or KY?
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Not yet, I asked Where and how much. I was told it would be announced soon.
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Karl was blessed with speed, not so much with soundness and (some will question this) heart.
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Karl was blessed with speed, not so much with soundness and (some will question this) heart.
Good points. The "fastest" 2yo, if he/she is way ahead of his/her peers, typically doesn't need heart, LOL.....until they do! LOL.
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Will be interesting to see if Atlanta crosses well , will The Crawfords send her to him ???
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My (uneducated) thoughts - Karl is a stud colt built like a filly. He will throw early speed and filly speed. His colts will have a hard time staying sound - especially if that speed is not managed well early. Due to the lack of size and weakness in the maternal line they will taper off at 3 and as aged horses.
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My (uneducated) thoughts - Karl is a stud colt built like a filly. He will throw early speed and filly speed. His colts will have a hard time staying sound - especially if that speed is not managed well early. Due to the lack of size and weakness in the maternal line they will taper off at 3 and as aged horses.
100% correct. His maternal side is horrible and soundness is big issue. Look at his sister. She can't even race.
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If they tried to race him at all as a 4 yr old, I think his value would have gone down more. He already has shown his vulnerabilities, at least Noel told everyone about his horse, no bullshit. I do question Karl's heart after re watching his 3 yr old races. His lack of anything on the maternal side, I wouldn't take a shot when there are great alternatives.
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If they tried to race him at all as a 4 yr old, I think his value would have gone down more. He already has shown his vulnerabilities, at least Noel told everyone about his horse, no bullshit. I do question Karl's heart after re watching his 3 yr old races. His lack of anything on the maternal side, I wouldn't take a shot when there are great alternatives.
And less expensive alternatives!!
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He is going to stand in KY
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He is going to stand in KY
Does Kentucky have ‘dual’ program where you can have an out of state bred horse that can be foaled in Kentucky and race both programs?
Does being a Kentucky sire help or hurt those who are interested in breeding to him and having to race there??
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If they tried to race him at all as a 4 yr old, I think his value would have gone down more. He already has shown his vulnerabilities, at least Noel told everyone about his horse, no bullshit. I do question Karl's heart after re watching his 3 yr old races. His lack of anything on the maternal side, I wouldn't take a shot when there are great alternatives.
I too would be way more inclined to try, for example, Sig Sauer over him, especially because my assumption is he's going to end up standing for around half of what they'll want for Karl. Muscle Hill sons, while not all top-tier sires, certainly hold their own. Sig also has a much stronger female line that actually seems to be heating back up, too.
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Sig was a 200K yearling so he has better pedigree and confirmation that Karl. Karl found his speed early as a typical driven 2yo by Yannick. They never get any faster or better. He went to the well way too soon.
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Does Kentucky have ‘dual’ program where you can have an out of state bred horse that can be foaled in Kentucky and race both programs?
Does being a Kentucky sire help or hurt those who are interested in breeding to him and having to race there??
I believe they do...but, independent of that, KY's program has been completely reinvented. It's really amazing compared to what it used to be. They went from a good, solid KYSS program, to none at all, to this. A strong sire stakes program makes all the difference in selling and buying high-priced yearlings. It's simply good for the business. Now, the sales are crooked, but that's another story. LOL.
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I think if they set Karl at 12,500 and sell him hard, and support him properly, he'll do fine for three to five years. I don't see him impacting the breed, but then again, people were wrong about Ralph Hanover, Speedy Somolli, Sweet Lou, and others, LOL.
I don't see one three year old this year who is a game-changer.
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I think if they set Karl at 12,500 and sell him hard, and support him properly, he'll do fine for three to five years. I don't see him impacting the breed, but then again, people were wrong about Ralph Hanover, Speedy Somolli, Sweet Lou, and others, LOL.
I don't see one three year old this year who is a game-changer.
TCI brings an interesting pedigree to the table, one of the last sons of cantab hall. Burke will probably race him for 2 or 3 years. If he turns into a top older trotter, 3 mil and a mark of 50 will make him a sire somewhere.
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TCI brings an interesting pedigree to the table, one of the last sons of cantab hall. Burke will probably race him for 2 or 3 years. If he turns into a top older trotter, 3 mil and a mark of 50 will make him a sire somewhere.
The horse could be a sire in Maryland, Massachusetts, Maine, and Minnesota for sure! Massachusetts would be very interesting as there is good money and the stakes season is after all major others (with the exception of Kentucky) and the program is only taking off now, not fully saturated with limited talent racing in this program!
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the kentucky stallion program rewards the owner of horses sired by a stallion standing in kentucky
the sires foals earn double earnings in all kentucky sires stakes races, i believe at ages 2,3,4
encourages strong yearling sales
gimpanzee is an example
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apparently tci going to stand in ohio in 2025
might be getting a few too many sires in the sport , certainly trotting but i guess everyone that owns a decent/good horse wants them to be a stallion
overall not good for the sport, would love to see some of these race at 4 and 5 at least
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jidge, you make an interesting observation on diamond creek and their breeding on those pacing mares
little close on the inbreeding for my liking but they seem hooked based on the rock n roll dance line based on past success
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apparently tci going to stand in ohio in 2025
might be getting a few too many sires in the sport , certainly trotting but i guess everyone that owns a decent/good horse wants them to be a stallion
overall not good for the sport, would love to see some of these race at 4 and 5 at least
Ohio has way too many studs - most of them being second or third tier from their respective year. The Amish have wildly overpopulated the state with almost 1k sold at public auction this year alone. I know good trainers that have just decided to focus on low priced lottery tickets vs trying to make back $40-50k in overpopulated classes - last two dominate trotting filly’s (Herculisa and Sugar Instead) were sold for under $10k.
What the Hill, In Range, Long Tom, Volstead, Ready for Moni, Beyond Kronos, Branded by Lindy, Centurion ATM, Coach K Hanover, Cuatro De Julio, Guardian Angel, Marseille, Play Trix On Me, Run Director, Slay, Uncle Peter….and those are just the more known ones. There are also horses like Molotov Cocktail, Mission Accepted, Il Sogno Dream, etc that still get bred to.
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jidge, you make an interesting observation on diamond creek and their breeding on those pacing mares
little close on the inbreeding for my liking but they seem hooked based on the rock n roll dance line based on past success
Not many successful inbred (2x3) horses. And if I was going to inbreed I'd go with Somebeachsomewher e, not A Rocknroll Dance. Just don't think bringing a double dose of A Rocknroll Dance to a son of Sweet Lou is going to work.