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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Locked in with pace on November 30, 2024, 07:33:06 AM

Title: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Locked in with pace on November 30, 2024, 07:33:06 AM
When reading the positive tests on the fines it clearly states the amount of purse money that has to be returned.

1. Does the trainer have to return their 5%?
2. Do the 2nd through 5th place trainers get their 5% increased?
3. Does the winning driver have to return their 5%?
4. Do the drivers of the 2nd through 5th have their 5% increased?
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Arrive7100 on November 30, 2024, 09:27:35 AM
If the horse won the race, the owner would have to return the purse money, along with a forfeiture of the winning trainer and driver's 5%, plus a redistribution of the other ones you mentioned.
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: carl baldwin on November 30, 2024, 09:39:38 AM
Does the driver, trainer and groom have to give back any tip paid to them?
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Arrive7100 on November 30, 2024, 09:44:31 AM
The groom would still get paid for paddocking the horse. When you say "tip", do you mean their 5% share of the purse, if you do, yes, they have to give it back.
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: rainman2 on November 30, 2024, 10:16:42 AM
The groom would still get paid for paddocking the horse. When you say "tip", do you mean their 5% share of the purse, if you do, yes, they have to give it back.

If the “tip” is outside of the purse money structure, I don’t believe the owner/trainer will be getting that money back. The owner/trainer might need a new groom (could be themselves) next time the horse races.  The word will probably get out very quickly if this occurred.
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: The Exporter on November 30, 2024, 12:38:17 PM
Everything gets reconfigured and distributed to the affected parties. Everyone but the gambler, that is. Tough shit, sucker. But, please get you wagers in for the pick 5...
 
 I have said for years, the tracks or the Racing Commissions should require every trainer that enterers a horse to have proper insurance. That insurance , in the form of a bond that would cover the losses of anyone directly affected by their malfeasance including the wagering public.
 It would clear-up a lot of this BS. 
For example; a trainer has 300 starts a year but no positive test that resulted in forfeiture of purse money, his cost for a surety bond would be quite low. But, in the case like
Dean Eckley, he would need to be cash bond as nobody would write him. That would get rid of him without any administrative or civil action to challenge. 
Or should we just continue to play this game that has been played from the first time a horse ever raced?

Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Yonkers1A on November 30, 2024, 01:16:45 PM
Everything gets reconfigured and distributed to the affected parties. Everyone but the gambler, that is. Tough shit, sucker. But, please get you wagers in for the pick 5...
 
 I have said for years, the tracks or the Racing Commissions should require every trainer that enterers a horse to have proper insurance. That insurance , in the form of a bond that would cover the losses of anyone directly affected by their malfeasance including the wagering public.
 It would clear-up a lot of this BS. 
For example; a trainer has 300 starts a year but no positive test that resulted in forfeiture of purse money, his cost for a surety bond would be quite low. But, in the case like
Dean Eckley, he would need to be cash bond as nobody would write him. That would get rid of him without any administrative or civil action to challenge. 
Or should we just continue to play this game that has been played from the first time a horse ever raced?

Spot on

Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Kirbys Ace on November 30, 2024, 01:27:41 PM
I thought ALL checks were held until the test results are released by the judges. So, if no money went out then no need to collect back.
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Locked in with pace on November 30, 2024, 01:40:24 PM
Then why do they write on the penalties on the USTA that the purse monies must be returned?
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Horseshoe on November 30, 2024, 01:55:03 PM
What about the better.
They also lost due to these cheating crooks.
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Arrive7100 on November 30, 2024, 02:32:05 PM
What about the better.
They also lost due to these cheating crooks.

Maybe they should make the bettors who won money on the race give it back too!
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Kirbys Ace on November 30, 2024, 04:12:13 PM
Then why do they write on the penalties on the USTA that the purse monies must be returned?

Don't know. But I do know my check for 2nd place was held for 3 months while the 1st place winner was positive. And they appealed it. I fault to no avail about to at least releasing my second-place check then they can write me another if they lose the appeal! If they win the appeal, then we're square. No Luck. Finally, I got the 1st place check after about 4 months! Sucked because I could have used the money for Xmas. Maybe things have change?
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Late to the Paddock on November 30, 2024, 07:28:45 PM
Then why do they write on the penalties on the USTA that the purse monies must be returned?

I read "purse monies must be returned" as a figure of speech. Can you imagine trying to get money back from some of these cretins?? And nearly every FAS report has a mention of someone bouncing a check.
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Locked in with pace on December 01, 2024, 04:58:38 AM
You get an indefinite suspension if you don't return the purse money by a listed date after getting a positive for that race—I've seen it posted —and I've seen listed a reinstatement after you do return the money. How some stall paying the money back is when the ask for a stay. The money eventually HAS to be returned
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Kirbys Ace on December 01, 2024, 11:15:56 AM
You get an indefinite suspension if you don't return the purse money by a listed date after getting a positive for that race—I've seen it posted —and I've seen listed a reinstatement after you do return the money. How some stall paying the money back is when the ask for a stay. The money eventually HAS to be returned

So now days they actually release the purse before test results are returned from lab?
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Arrive7100 on December 01, 2024, 11:24:57 AM
So now days they actually release the purse before test results are returned from lab?

At most tracks I know the drivers have direct deposit for their purse checks, so they probably get paid first.
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Locked in with pace on December 01, 2024, 12:36:57 PM
OWNERS HAVE DIRECT DEPOSIT TOO . ALMOST ALL TRACKS NOW REQUIRE IT
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: carl baldwin on December 01, 2024, 06:10:27 PM
The groom would still get paid for paddocking the horse. When you say "tip", do you mean their 5% share of the purse, if you do, yes, they have to give it back.
The "tip" would be a cash payment above and beyond the 5% or 10% of the purse they automatically get.
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Locked in with pace on December 02, 2024, 04:14:12 AM
Does anyone know the largest 1st place check that had to be returned due to a positive post-race test?
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: SeattleSlew on December 02, 2024, 05:17:50 AM
Medina's Spirit $1.86mm check had to be "returned."

Perfect Sting $74,166 returned (which is ironic since he had gotten the "W" by the DQ of the original 1st place horse in the race he tested positive).

Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Arrive7100 on December 02, 2024, 05:28:54 AM
Does anyone know the largest 1st place check that had to be returned due to a positive post-race test?
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If you recall, Charlie May who won the 2021 Meadowlands Pace but was DQ'd for interference. In February of 2023, after a lengthy court battle the judges determined that Southwind Gendry made a quick break, interfering with Charlie May, causing him to interfere with horses behind him. The judges eventually reversed their decision and declared Charlie May the winner of the 2021 Meadowlands Pace. Their decision was appealed by other owners but if I recall, earlier this year he was ultimately declared the winner, but I don't know if anyone appealed the decision or if he's been paid and the purse redistributed.
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: SeattleSlew on December 02, 2024, 10:27:26 PM
I believe the question related to a "positive test" which puts Charlie May's situation in a different category.
Title: Re: WHO KNOWS THE RULES
Post by: Arrive7100 on December 03, 2024, 02:12:47 AM
I've never seen any mention of a positive test on Charlie May. He never should have been DQ'd in the first place for interfering because the horse he was following, Southwind Gendry backed into him causing a chain reaction behind him. It was obvious when it happened live and just as obvious on the replay, but the judges were blind.
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