HORSEPLOP.COM
General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: stanetelman on January 02, 2025, 02:35:17 PM
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"It’s our goal to wager $3 million on any given card,” said track Chief Operating Officer and General Manager Jason Settlemoir. “Whether it’s Meadowlands Pace Night or an ordinary winter Saturday night, that’s the bar we always try to clear, and we were fortunate enough to do that a majority of the time during 2024. Unfortunately we failed to reach that number on 42 cards, which resulted in a significant loss of revenue."
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"It’s our goal to wager $3 million on any given card,” said track Chief Operating Officer and General Manager Jason Settlemoir. “Whether it’s Meadowlands Pace Night or an ordinary winter Saturday night, that’s the bar we always try to clear, and we were fortunate enough to do that a majority of the time during 2024. Unfortunately we failed to reach that number on 42 cards, which resulted in a significant loss of revenue."
Even when they handle 3 million, the majority of which is off track, with their host share between 4 & 5% tops, on a 15-race card that's $75,000 max, which doesn't even come close to funding their purses without the supplement.
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Even when they handle 3 million, the majority of which is off track, with their host share between 4 & 5% tops, on a 15-race card that's $75,000 max, which doesn't even come close to funding their purses without the supplement.
The elite turf club makes up a huge % of that 3mm. After the pools close
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Settlemoir is just a puppet for Gural and repeats the same story every week. Nothing original ever comes out of his mouth.
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The state subsidy was dependent upon increased handle. An easy way to show that is by including Elite at an 11% rebate and ability to be after all of us. Every penny ever wagered by anyone since Elite has been in those pools should be returned to the bettor. All it's going to take is a class action. Easy win
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They should be happy with the handle. How many people under the age of 40 are at that track on a Friday or Saturday wagering on horses and not sports? 25 tops.
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The elite turf club makes up a huge % of that 3mm. After the pools close
Does this mean my "matter of fact" comment about CAWs comprising at least 50% or more of Gural's handle isn't so outlandish after all?
did you suddenly change your mind?
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Even when they handle 3 million, the majority of which is off track, with their host share between 4 & 5% tops, on a 15-race card that's $75,000 max, which doesn't even come close to funding their purses without the supplement.
At 5% that is $150,000 based on $3 million handle.
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You're right, what I did was multiply the 5% by the 15 races by mistake!
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Does this mean my "matter of fact" comment about CAWs comprising at least 50% or more of Gural's handle isn't so outlandish after all?
did you suddenly change your mind?
You might have been correct all along
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sincere thanks tmbz1
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If the CAW's make up 50% of the Meadowlands handle...it's game over.
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If the CAW's make up 50% of the Meadowlands handle...it's game over.
it has been this way for a few years at M1--yet everyone loves their Big M
why do think they handle relatively well?
they give Elite a massive rebate that's why
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If the CAW's make up 50% of the Meadowlands handle...it's game over.
There's some info out there that does say eilte does over half the handle. Somehow their algorithm can make money doing that. Hard to believe but I guess the algorithm is super sharp
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betting after the race starts helps out as well
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All the cash poured into napolitano in race 14. Everyone knew. except gural and brice
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1/4 handle
$2,752.233
0/1 reaching $3 million
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i know most like to dump on the big m and the B drivers
but for the first 6 races tonight it is outstanding , competitive races, lots of flow
then flip over and watch the single file shit going on at mohawk
big m rules
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Bartlett has gathered all type of confidence over the 1 mile oval
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Warkenton has just crowned him "The new Mr. Saturday Night."
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Could Jasin save the Meadowlands?
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Stan, you ain't the man so read this: Total Nightly Handle tonight: $3,097,642.84!
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Back in their heyday they would handle over 4 million on Saturday nights with less races, no ADW's, plus the purses were higher, the quality of racing was alot better, and all the regular drivers would be there instead of on vacation.
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not sure why 30+ plus years ago is relevant
the world has changed
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I know the world has changed. It's relevant because when they their handle was 4 million on track they were making a profit., with crowds of 10,000 or more, parking, concessions, etc. Now they're lucky if on track attendance is 500, and I seriously doubt it's even that on most nights. When it's 3 million now, the majority of it is off track and their host fees are no more than 5% which is $150,000 which doesn't even cover their purses on some nights. If it wasn't for the purse subsidy and whatever they're getting from the FanDuel Sportsbook there, they might be out of business because Gural constantly complains how they're losing money on racing and he's tired of funding it with his own money.
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Friday 1/3 handle
$2,752.233
0/1 reaching $3 million
Saturday 1/4 handle
$3,097,643
1/2 reaching $3 million
$149,124 below break even point
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I know the world has changed. It's relevant because when they their handle was 4 million on track they were making a profit., with crowds of 10,000 or more, parking, concessions, etc. Now they're lucky if on track attendance is 500, and I seriously doubt it's even that on most nights. When it's 3 million now, the majority of it is off track and their host fees are no more than 5% which is $150,000 which doesn't even cover their purses on some nights. If it wasn't for the purse subsidy and whatever they're getting from the FanDuel Sportsbook there, they might be out of business because Gural constantly complains how they're losing money on racing and he's tired of funding it with his own money.
in NJ--there is NO correlation between sports book profits and purses
FanDuel doesn't help purses and has no obligation to do so
Gural gets a piece of FanDuel sports closet profits--and he says he kicks in some to help fund purses--but I am doubtful he really takes money out of his own pocket to help purses
he would be better off not having CAWs, have his handle cut in half--then he would have a legitimate reason to cry poor mouse
it seems there must be a reason to make the handle look good--window dressing, incentives, whatever it is--but the appearance of a $3mil handle must make him feel better or he believes bettors don't know that half or more of his handle is CAW and they think they are betting into a non CAW $3mil--or, like someone suggested--there is some secret subsidy from NJ tied into the handle
they should go to 1 day a week racing on Sunday nights when virtually nobody else is racing-that works well-look at how much Harrahs PHL handled on Christmas Eve and New Years Eve
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They WILL be racing Sunday nights at 5:00pm PAPY in February and March, except for SB Sunday, so we will see how that works out. If $3 million is the handle, whether live or simulcast, each race has anywhere from 15-25% takeouts, so where does that approximately $600,000 go to, if averaging the the takeouts to 20% for the night?
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in NJ--there is NO correlation between sports book profits and purses
FanDuel doesn't help purses and has no obligation to do so
Gural gets a piece of FanDuel sports closet profits--and he says he kicks in some to help fund purses--but I am doubtful he really takes money out of his own pocket to help purses
he would be better off not having CAWs, have his handle cut in half--then he would have a legitimate reason to cry poor mouse
it seems there must be a reason to make the handle look good--window dressing, incentives, whatever it is--but the appearance of a $3mil handle must make him feel better or he believes bettors don't know that half or more of his handle is CAW and they think they are betting into a non CAW $3mil--or, like someone suggested--there is some secret subsidy from NJ tied into the handle
they should go to 1 day a week racing on Sunday nights when virtually nobody else is racing-that works well-look at how much Harrahs PHL handled on Christmas Eve and New Years Eve
I suggested it. It was actually never a secret. But, it wasn't widely publicized either. Gural needed to show increased handle to justify the subsidy per the agreement. So caws became a bigger presence as their money is easily muddied and overall handle with them included has justified the continued state money.
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They WILL be racing Sunday nights at 5:00pm PAPY in February and March, except for SB Sunday, so we will see how that works out. If $3 million is the handle, whether live or simulcast, each race has anywhere from 15-25% takeouts, so where does that approximately $600,000 go to, if averaging the the takeouts to 20% for the night?
He gives a good portion of that supposed $600k to rebates-mostly Elite but there are plenty of smaller rebate shops that get the rest
since Elite accounts for at least half the handle--rumored to be at about 10%--that would be Elite getting $300k of that $600k you speak of
their Sunday night handle will be better than expected--Pompano and Cal Expo would have their highest handles on Sunday nights
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He gives a good portion of that supposed $600k to rebates-mostly Elite but there are plenty of smaller rebate shops that get the rest
since Elite accounts for at least half the handle--rumored to be at about 10%--that would be Elite getting $300k of that $600k you speak of
their Sunday night handle will be better than expected--Pompano and Cal Expo would have their highest handles on Sunday nights
People are saying it's a blended 11% rebate. Higher for large takeout wagers like trifectas and pick 3s, lower for the others. Source market fees about 4-5%. They aren't making 600k on a 3MM handle. Maybe 200k 250k . I reversed course and believe you are right all along and corruption runs wild
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just another comment on betting after the bell.....
ALL the Elite bets are made after every other dollar is wagered--they are allowed to perform "pool analysis" then are allowed to be the last bets made--wouldn't one assume, if all the other dollars are allowed to bet up until the very last second, that the Elite dollars are inherently made after the race starts?
I know for a fact that Lexington and a hub in Oregon (most likely others also)are allowed to bet after the race starts--since that is true--then Elite bets after they do--that automatically proves that Elite is allowed to bet after the bell even more so than Lexington/Oregon hubs.
I say there is the undeniable proof.
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just another comment on betting after the bell.....
ALL the Elite bets are made after every other dollar is wagered--they are allowed to perform "pool analysis" then are allowed to be the last bets made--wouldn't one assume, if all the other dollars are allowed to bet up until the very last second, that the Elite dollars are inherently made after the race starts?
I know for a fact that Lexington and a hub in Oregon (most likely others also)are allowed to bet after the race starts--since that is true--then Elite bets after they do--that automatically proves that Elite is allowed to bet after the bell even more so than Lexington/Oregon hubs.
I say there is the undeniable proof.
since Elite accounts for at least half the handle--rumored to be at about 10%--that would be Elite getting $300k of that $600k you speak of
1st you said CAWS are half the handle, now you say ELITE is half the handle...CAWS are not anywhere near half the handle.......... Just a number you MADE-UP!
2nd There are no open windows PERIOD
YOU & a few others keep repeating this same BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!
NO FACTS just Made-up BULLSHIT......... ....... The Sad thing is some people will believe you! Why don't you tell us how the Moon landing was FAKED?
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1st you said CAWS are half the handle, now you say ELITE is half the handle...CAWS are not anywhere near half the handle.......... Just a number you MADE-UP!
2nd There are no open windows PERIOD
YOU & a few others keep repeating this same BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!
NO FACTS just Made-up BULLSHIT......... ....... The Sad thing is some people will believe you! Why don't you tell us how the Moon landing was FAKED?
sorry these truths upset you
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1st you said CAWS are half the handle, now you say ELITE is half the handle...CAWS are not anywhere near half the handle.......... Just a number you MADE-UP!
2nd There are no open windows PERIOD
YOU & a few others keep repeating this same BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!
NO FACTS just Made-up BULLSHIT......... ....... The Sad thing is some people will believe you! Why don't you tell us how the Moon landing was FAKED?
There is recent information suggesting Elite is over half the total handle in some races at some tracks. Nobody really knows but it's in the realm of possibility that they are 50% at the meadowlands. The entire reason why the CAWs like elite exist is cause they bet after we do. In return for this favor, they must bet a pre negotiated amount. Then they get negotiated rebates. Since places like elite are owned by racetracks, the essentially pay only a negotiated host fee. All of this has become very public information. Watching and betting after the bell, that's not part of the caw situation or what they do
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The bottom line is EVERY race has at LEAST a 15% takeout. Is the 4-5% fee the Meadowlands gets from simulcasting added to the 15% minimum takeout every race?
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What’s so critical about a specific # of 3 million per card.
Does 2.8 make the handle a failure?
Don’t think so. Get off being stuck on a figure that means nothing.
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they should go to 1 day a week racing on Sunday nights when virtually nobody else is racing-that works well-look at how much Harrahs PHL handled on Christmas Eve and New Years Eve
Except they had over 400 horses entered on Friday and Saturday.Even at 10 horses per race for the 28 races, that left over 120 horses not racing that week. Your suggestion to race just Sunday is a quick way to kill the sport with so many horses sitting in their stalls.
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Except they had over 400 horses entered on Friday and Saturday.Even at 10 horses per race for the 28 races, that left over 120 horses not racing that week. Your suggestion to race just Sunday is a quick way to kill the sport with so many horses sitting in their stalls.
ok--they can race Sun-Mon-Tue
racing when others do not will increase handle
maybe try Mon and Tuesday afternoons when there isn't much competition
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Those are the only two days bettors work. I wonder though do people bet at work these days. You are at your desk with a betting device or in a vehicle with one.
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Who would play it ? Since they opened it is the worst harness track to bet
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Saturday 1/4 handle
$3,097,643
1/2 reaching $3 million
$149,124 below break even point
Friday 1/10 handle
$3,068,924
2/3 reaching $3 million
$80,200 below break even point
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Does the sportsbook cash make up for the racing handle deficit?
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Back in 2018, an ad hoc committee was put together by the SBOANJ. Several key people were asked to serve, one being an attorney who is very well versed in these matters. They met with Meadowlands management and the sports betting management. A deal was made, for 10 years, that had the Meadowlands contributing a minimum of $1m to the purse account annually. These monies were specifically from the Meadowlands share of the sports betting revenue, and it was formulaic as to how much would be added. I don't have the report here, but I do know that in 2022, over $4mm was added into the purse account directly from the sports betting revenue. I remember the number because it matched the amount of overpayment made into the purse account by the Meadowlands X number of years prior. I don't remember the 2023 numbers and the 2024 numbers are not out yet.
The agreements between the sports betting entities and the racetracks, and the revenue sharing arrangements, are private agreements. The SBOANJ does however get assurances, data, and the numbers, so that they can reconcile all the numbers.
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Friday 1/10 handle
$3,068,924
2/3 reaching $3 million
$80,200 below break even point
All-source handle Saturday night totaled $3,263,716 on the 14-race card to complete the first $6 million weekend at The Big M since Nov. 29-30, 2024. The average is OVER $3 million in 4 cards. It is time Stanny your MORONIC postings go by the wayside into oblivion! You look like a buffoon on a losing mission.
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Handle was much more important to Meadowlands and other tracks before there were ADW's and OTB's because it was mainly live on track handle which they kept more of. These days Meadowlands on track handle is probably less than 10% of their overall handle, so on most days they're lucky if it's enough to cover purses for that night.
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my estimate is that M1 on track handle is less than $100k or 3% of the total handle at most
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Most people who go are there for the sportsbook.
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Most people who go are there for the sportsbook.
Agree. Was thinking 5% or less. While I like the new building and especially the roof top bar (for late spring/summer) the setup is terrible to watch races and sports together.
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Nice and clean new building and is fine.
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Friday 1/10 handle
$3,068,924
2/3 reaching $3 million
$80,200 below break even point
Saturday 1/11 handle
$3,264,500
3/4 reaching $3 million
$184,300 above break even point
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Unfortunately, operating without ancillary revenue from an alternate form of gaming and left to depend on money bet on the races as the main stream of revenue doesn’t pay the bills, jeopardizing the future of racing at the Meadowlands.
The revenue being generated by the sources available can not sustain purses at the current level, nor does it cover the cost of operations. That problem is compounded by the fact that handle on horse racing and in turn, the revenue derived from it, declines every year. For the last four months, combined pari-mutuel handle is down $4.75M or 5%, with live being down $54K (2%), Import down $3.3M (12%) and Export down $1.4M (2%).
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Nice and clean new building and is fine. ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
Meadowlands President Jeff Gural spoke about losing money, “Even though we spent over $100 million to build a beautiful new facility which caters to owners, it has not resulted in drawing people, even horse people, to come to the track."
“The truth is harness racing only exists in NJ because I continue to underwrite the losses in the hope of getting a casino and making my investment pay off but I'm not getting any younger and our customers are continuing to die off which weakens our case each year."
73cv.2 73cv.2 73cv.2
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Stop the whining and fucking close the doors already or let Elite buy it. They control the track anyways. Let them bet against any suckers that remain to play against them while they continue to game the system. The suckers will die or go broke. In reality there is no reason to keep this place open. Jeff went to the "Crossroads" with Elite. Like most deals with the devil. it will not look good in the end.
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They will never realize that catering to owners (as oppossed to gamblers) was and is a disastrous strategy.
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The elite turf club makes up a huge % of that 3mm. After the pools close
Correct,,,,,,,,,,,,wEG and the bigm have being bull shi ing us for a long time with handle as its not real but the handle shows interest from a huge betting public and gets them welfare money they do not deserve,,,,,,,,
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Friday 1/17 handle
$2,578,824
3 out of 5 cards handling over $3 million
$23
6,876 below break even point
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Don't worry, spin doctor Jason Settlemoir will still brag how Meadowlands handles more money at night than any other track in the country, but he won't tell you they're losing money on racing.
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Handle was much more important to Meadowlands and other tracks before there were ADW's and OTB's because it was mainly live on track handle which they kept more of. These days Meadowlands on track handle is probably less than 10% of their overall handle, so on most days they're lucky if it's enough to cover purses for that night.
live handle is less than 3% of the total handle
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Don’t worry, boys. I spoke to Mr Gurel last night in Trotters, and he is pretty sure he’ll be getting a casino within 2 years.
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Don’t worry, boys. I spoke to Mr Gurel last night in Trotters, and he is pretty sure he’ll be getting a casino within 2 years.
He was there on a Friday night for real?
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When will all you realize that if it wasn’t for Jeff Gural, there would be no Meadowlands. You’re a bunch of fucking hypocrites. He deserves a casino more than any other interest and I hope he gets it. Can’t imagine would the comments would be if the track folded. In addition, bringing back harness racing is like bringing back Blockbuster Video or a fax machine. The world has moved on. You’re in complete denial if you think otherwise.
Name one other person that has dome more to support this dying sport than Jeff. Give him a fucking break you assholes
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agreed
i would prefer to see a guy who owns a track get a casino rather than the other way around
we know how that can end up
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Friday 1/17 handle
$2,578,824
3 out of 5 cards handling over $3 million
$236,876 below break even point
Correction on the post
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He was there on a Friday night for real?
Sitting next to Settlemoir having dinner at the next table. I took photos on my phone but don’t know how to get them on here.
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Friday 1/17 handle
$2,578,824
3 out of 5 cards handling over $3 million
$236,876 below break even point
Saturday 1/18 handle with Mohawk cancellation
$2,980,911
3 out of 6 cards handling over $3 million
$255,965 below break even point
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Saturday 1/18 handle with Mohawk cancellation
$2,980,911
3 out of 6 cards handling over $3 million
$255,965 below break even point
Friday 1/24 handle
$2,573,639
3 out of 7 cards handling over $3 million
$682,326 below break even point
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They will handle 3 million tonight .
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if $3mil handle is some type of magic number...why don't they have 18 races or more per card on the 2 days a week schedule?
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Friday 1/24 handle
$2,573,639
3 out of 7 cards handling over $3 million
$682,326 below break even point
Saturday 1/25 handle
$3.325,776
4 out of 8 cards handling over $3 million
$356,550 below break even point
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Sitting next to Settlemoir having dinner at the next table. I took photos on my phone but don’t know how to get them on here.
You took photos of Gural @ the Meadowlands?
Oh, to be so star struck
Like coming on the Wynn elevator & Goldie Hawn is also going down, in 1989
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if $3mil handle is some type of magic number...why don't they have 18 races or more per card on the 2 days a week schedule?
Would the horsemen and the track be able to start at 4pm considering how the track extends times between races??
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they can handle 4 million a night and Gural will keep asking for a casino. It's as simple as that.
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they can handle 4 million a night and Gural will keep asking for a casino. It's as simple as that.
Why is this a problem?
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Why is this a problem?
...because he is a very wealthy, arrogant man who crowned himself "savior", actually believing somehow that NJ automatically would give him a casino, not understanding NJ politics, and now he is crying "poor mouse" after he made a poor decision by spending millions on a new M1 and lobbying, now, almost 10 years later, he is starting to realize his "dream casino" isn't happening anytime soon-so he continues to weep about how poor he is. Now he threatens to close his bad investment if he doesn't get his casino.
His hubris, poor judgement and overall lack of awareness is why he is in the position he is in- out millions of dollars-, begging for a casino that he wont get.
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so true
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...because he is a very wealthy, arrogant man who crowned himself "savior", actually believing somehow that NJ automatically would give him a casino, not understanding NJ politics, and now he is crying "poor mouse" after he made a poor decision by spending millions on a new M1 and lobbying, now, almost 10 years later, he is starting to realize his "dream casino" isn't happening anytime soon-so he continues to weep about how poor he is. Now he threatens to close his bad investment if he doesn't get his casino.
His hubris, poor judgement and overall lack of awareness is why he is in the position he is in- out millions of dollars-, begging for a casino that he wont get.
I didn't see anyone else breaking down doors to operate M1.
He saved racing in the swamp. If he didn't, this thread wouldnt exist.
He's not perfect by any means.
But instead of having such a hard on for him, why not just say "Thank you"?
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I didn't see anyone else breaking down doors to operate M1.
He saved racing in the swamp. If he didn't, this thread wouldnt exist.
He's not perfect by any means.
But instead of having such a hard on for him, why not just say "Thank you"?
thank him for what?
corn contests?
amateur driving races?
30 minutes or more between races?
allowing Elite to comprise 50% of the handle-picking the pockets of everyone else?
two days a week racing?
The M1 provides fond memories of the 70s 80s and 90s--i get it.... I went hundreds of times
...but those days are over--harness racing is bleeding out-all Gural did was provide a temporary infusion to keep it going, so he can complain about losing money and demand a casino
why doesn't "savior" publish how much of his handle is Elite Turf Club?
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thank him for what?
corn contests?
amateur driving races?
30 minutes or more between races?
allowing Elite to comprise 50% of the handle-picking the pockets of everyone else?
two days a week racing?
The M1 provides fond memories of the 70s 80s and 90s--i get it.... I went hundreds of times
...but those days are over--harness racing is bleeding out-all Gural did was provide a temporary infusion to keep it going, so he can complain about losing money and demand a casino
why doesn't "savior" publish how much of his handle is Elite Turf Club?
So let me understand . By Gural providing ALL the funding to keep the Meadowlands alive was a worse option than NO Meadowlands at all? What am I missing?
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So let me understand . By Gural providing ALL the funding to keep the Meadowlands alive was a worse option than NO Meadowlands at all? What am I missing?
you are ignoring Gural's declaring himself "savior"....his arrogance about how he feels he is entitled to a casino, and his constant complaining about losing money.
as far as a better option goes--maybe the M1 should have closed 10 years ago-in that scenario, the industry would be forced to make the appropriate business adjustments back then-instead of 10 years of a pipedream about a "casino" that for some reason, people feel that casino will completely save the industry...he we are a decade later in a worse spot as handle decreases 5% every year and that includes letting all the CAW in the pools.
Gural kicked the can down the road 10-12 years but will be forced to face the inevitable
kicking the can down the road doesn't work when there isn't any more road left
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You are a special kind of stupid
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So let me understand . By Gural providing ALL the funding to keep the Meadowlands alive was a worse option than NO Meadowlands at all? What am I missing?
Staying open introduced CAWs into the pools to secure the state subsidy. I think that was worse than closing. Now there are caws at lots of tracks in harness and gural was the one who introduced them
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gural's not the problem or to blame
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Saturday 1/25 handle
$3,325,776
4 out of 8 cards handling over $3 million
$356,550 below break even point
Friday 1/31 handle
$3,040,212
5 out of 9 cards handling over $3 million
$316,328 below break even point
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it's going to be around 3.7 tonight
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Looking like a huge night considering the garbage horses especially those Freehold creatures are still around .
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Friday 1/31 handle
$3,040,212
5 out of 9 cards handling over $3 million
$316,328 below break even point
Saturday 2/1 handle
$3,615,687
6 out of 10 cards handling over $3 million
$299,359 above break even point
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I don't get caught up in the handle. They are running 14 races per night so naturally you will have a higher handle.
I was watching the races after they hit the quarter pole some of these odds drop so dramatically and that is the thing
that bothers me the most. You handicap a race thinking the selections you make will have value as the race starts you
see the odds go from 8/1 to 3/1. Even the people on TVG notice it even though that means nothing. That is the issue
I have over the handle. I do not play or invest the money I used to play because of this reason.
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The Big M has and will always be the best harness racing venue in N America.
Everyone that loves harness racing should embrace this fact.
All of the negative comments are so lame.
Handle over 3 million a card is amazing for harness these days.
Try rooting for the Big M to win and stop criticizing please.
If your a true harness racing fan, embrace this place and the efforts of Gural and all that put on the show twice a week. If the Meadowlands falls the game in the US is over for the trots.
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How many people are their betting live?
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The Big M has and will always be the best harness racing venue in N America.
Everyone that loves harness racing should embrace this fact.
All of the negative comments are so lame.
Handle over 3 million a card is amazing for harness these days.
Try rooting for the Big M to win and stop criticizing please.
If your a true harness racing fan, embrace this place and the efforts of Gural and all that put on the show twice a week. If the Meadowlands falls the game in the US is over for the trots.
We are free to criticize it all we want. Who the hell are you to tell anyone different?
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I am only interested in full and competitive fields, a large pool to bet into, and in the end whether or not the race is playable. If I had to pick one benchmark----percentage of beaten favorites! LOL.
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I don't get caught up in the handle. They are running 14 races per night so naturally you will have a higher handle.
I was watching the races after they hit the quarter pole some of these odds drop so dramatically and that is the thing
that bothers me the most. You handicap a race thinking the selections you make will have value as the race starts you
see the odds go from 8/1 to 3/1. Even the people on TVG notice it even though that means nothing. That is the issue
I have over the handle. I do not play or invest the money I used to play because of this reason.
Gee, the common theory on this site is that ALL bets are made before the race starts and Elite bets exactly one second after all the legit bets are made
somehow--we see the dramatic odds drop at the 1/4 pole
it is not a coincidence the horses that have their odds drop are in a favorable position on the first turn-yet many here are in denial, or are aware and choose to stick their head in the sand and bet anyway
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Elite got burned in the 5th race on Captain Bazinga . Bagged by Stratton after 10k came in at the quarter pole .
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It's very easy to determine final odds on races 2,4,6,7,9,11,13,14
All you have to do is look at the will pays and you will get to >90% accuracy of final win odds.
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I’m a harness race fan that supports anyone that promotes the sport which keeps all of the hard working horse people employed and doing what they love.
Those who bash are doing the exact opposite.
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Hell of a weekend handle .
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Saturday 2/1 handle
$3,615,687
6 out of 10 cards handling over $3 million
$299,359 above break even point
Friday 2/7 handle
$2,789,310
6 out of 11 cards handling over $3 million
$88,669 above break even point
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I’m a harness race fan that supports anyone that promotes the sport which keeps all of the hard working horse people employed and doing what they love.
Those who bash are doing the exact opposite.
Those who bash are providing critically important customer feedback. It gets decidedly ignored and even worse, bashed by track employees. Tracks closing left and right, sport on life support. How has all of this support been working out?
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The Big M has and will always be the best harness racing venue in N America.
Everyone that loves harness racing should embrace this fact.
All of the negative comments are so lame.
Handle over 3 million a card is amazing for harness these days.
Try rooting for the Big M to win and stop criticizing please.
If your a true harness racing fan, embrace this place and the efforts of Gural and all that put on the show twice a week. If the Meadowlands falls the game in the US is over for the trots.
what you interpret as "negative" or "critical" is your opinion--they are just truths that a few are very upset with
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Doesn't matter what the topic is, some people just can't handle the truth if it differs from their opinion.
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Doesn't matter what the topic is, some people just can't handle the truth if it differs from their opinion.
true--people hear/believe what they want to--much like politics
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Friday 2/7 handle
$2,789,310
6 out of 11 cards handling over $3 million
$88,669 above break even point
Saturday 2/8 canceled
Friday 2/14 handle
$2,845,718
6 out of 12 cards handling over $3 million
$65,613 below break even point
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Why do you care? tmbz1
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Saturday 2/8 canceled
Friday 2/14 handle
$2,845,718
6 out of 12 cards handling over $3 million
$65,613 below break even point
Where is the break even number is it 3 million ?
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Saturday 2/8 canceled
Friday 2/14 handle
$2,845,718
6 out of 12 cards handling over $3 million
$65,613 below break even point
Saturday 2/15 handle
$3,077,871
7 out of 13 cards handling over $3 million
$12,258 above break even point
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Saturday 2/15 handle
$3,077,871
7 out of 13 cards handling over $3 million
$12,258 above break even point
There is no way that number is break even point. Just my opinion. Nobody really knows
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With all the cheap races they are running which have much smaller purses, and still handling like last year, the bottom line has to be better. What the bottom line is will never truly be known.
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There is no way that number is break even point. Just my opinion. Nobody really knows
tmbz1 tmbz1
if $3mil is the break even point(which it isn't)-why is he threatening to close M1 unless he gets a casino(which he is not getting anytime soon)?
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Saturday 2/15 handle
$3,077,871
7 out of 13 cards handling over $3 million
$12,258 above break even point
Friday 2/21 handle
$2,683,662
7 out of 14 cards handling over $3 million
$304,080 below break even point
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Friday 2/21 handle
$2,683,662
7 out of 14 cards handling over $3 million
$304,080 below break even point
Saturday 2/22 handle
$2,952,388
7 out of 15 cards handling over $3 million
$351,692 below break even point
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Saturday 2/22 handle
$2,952,388
7 out of 15 cards handling over $3 million
$351,692 below break even point
Friday 2/28 handle
$3,055,784
8 out of 16 cards handling over $3 million
$295,908 below break even point
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How is it remotely possible that Dave Little could give out Captain Up as his "price play" of the night?
The horse was 3/5
The romanelli uy gives out mad max Hanover as his prie play at 1/2.
I don't understand
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Friday 2/28 handle
$3,055,784
8 out of 16 cards handling over $3 million
$295,908 below break even point
Saturday 3/1 handle
$3,137,584
9 out of 17 cards handling over $3 million
$158,324 below break even point
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Saturday 3/1 handle
$3,137,584
9 out of 17 cards handling over $3 million
$158,324 below break even point
Friday 3/7 handle
$2,753,583
9 out of 18 cards handling over $3 million
$404,741 below break even point
Saturday 3/8 handle
$3,293,697
10 out of 19 cards handling over $3 million
$111,044 below break even point
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Friday 3/7 handle
$2,753,583
9 out of 18 cards handling over $3 million
$404,741 below break even point
Saturday 3/8 handle
$3,293,697
10 out of 19 cards handling over $3 million
$111,044 below break even point
Friday 3/14 handle
$2,530,437
10 out of 20 cards handling over $3 million
$580,607 below break even point
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Where can I bet after a race starts?
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Meadowlands handle has been very good
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When The Meadowlands used to be THE Meadowlands the winter series would have just ended. Five days a week racing. Best horses and drivers in the world. Now, two days a week. Crying for entries. Four Amateur races. And short distance gimmick racing. Good news, the chicken race isn't too far off! ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 #defundharnessracing
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Friday 3/14 handle
$2,530,437
10 out of 20 cards handling over $3 million
$580,607 below break even point
Saturday 3/15 handle
$3,067,559
11 out of 21 cards handling over $3 million
$513,048 below break even point
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Meadowlands is doing okay ✅
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curious on the break even point being used here. What's your calc?
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If there really is a simple, linear, break-even number, nobody is going to know what it is-----only what Gural says it is. I don't think it's simply about $3mm. Statistics don't lie, but statisticians do, and in the harness game you can give me decimal-based numbers all you want, but handle is trending down. It may be a slow decline, but it's a decline. Countless reasons. There is no harness track in North America that is going to buck that trend. Nobody is in a position to. The sport and industry is not in a position to.
All the efforts, longer races, shorter races, promos, food truck festivals, zebra races, and so on.....will soon be rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.....until the Meadowlands gets other revenue streams.....and Gural is focused on a casino. He should be. That's his solution. If the referendum passes, and they give the casino to someone else, Gural ain't no dummy. He's smart. He will weigh getting his check for the unamortized cost of what he spent (and potentially closing), versus whatever revenue, subsidy, etc., deal he would make. MGM and Genting may have an edge in NY, but Gural has to hope they get the casino license for downstate. If he claims he's losing money now, what's the point of arguing and to what end. Anyone and everyone's opinion, bitching and moaning, accusations, etc., doesn't count for anything. Positive, negative, part of the problem, solution, whatever. Me, I want to see what happens at the next two meetings and what Gural does and handles the CAW situation-----if he does-----even though it will not bring about a substantial increase in handle.
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Why do people think Gural is getting a casino?
I don't get it
its not happening
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I think people see a few things-----one, the last referendum was designed to fail. It was a sacrificial lamb and part of a negotiated package. Ask citizens of NJ whether or not they want a casino outside AC, or ask them whether or not they want a casino at the Meadowlands, and I think you will get two different answers. Maybe not enough to pass, but still different. Two, and what may change that is when casinos are opened in downstate NY. Get casinos there, whether it be Yonkers, Aqueduct, NYC, the Hudson River, whatever, and that changes a lot.
Personally, I think you'll see at least one casino outside AC in the next 15 years.
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I think people see a few things-----one, the last referendum was designed to fail. It was a sacrificial lamb and part of a negotiated package. Ask citizens of NJ whether or not they want a casino outside AC, or ask them whether or not they want a casino at the Meadowlands, and I think you will get two different answers. Maybe not enough to pass, but still different. Two, and what may change that is when casinos are opened in downstate NY. Get casinos there, whether it be Yonkers, Aqueduct, NYC, the Hudson River, whatever, and that changes a lot.
Personally, I think you'll see at least one casino outside AC in the next 15 years.
[/b]
I certainly agree with that tmbz1
but I am also fairly certain it wont be before 2030--and I doubt Gural will continue to wait it out
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He can't...he's too old, LOL.
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A ballot question was asked (want to say 5 years ago) and people voted was like 80% to no casino in northern NJ. Roads are disaster, people here are getting taxed to death, I don’t see a casino happening in northern NJ and I’m not sure why Gural thinks this is going to change.
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A ballot question was asked (want to say 5 years ago) and people voted was like 80% to no casino in northern NJ. Roads are disaster, people here are getting taxed to death, I don’t see a casino happening in northern NJ and I’m not sure why Gural thinks this is going to change.
Those are 2 reasons there will be a casino in Northern N J. As soon as NJ sees all the jersey license plates at Aqueduct casino the ball will start rolling.
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If there really is a simple, linear, break-even number, nobody is going to know what it is-----only what Gural says it is. I don't think it's simply about $3mm. Statistics don't lie, but statisticians do, and in the harness game you can give me decimal-based numbers all you want, but handle is trending down. It may be a slow decline, but it's a decline. Countless reasons. There is no harness track in North America that is going to buck that trend. Nobody is in a position to. The sport and industry is not in a position to.
All the efforts, longer races, shorter races, promos, food truck festivals, zebra races, and so on.....will soon be rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.....until the Meadowlands gets other revenue streams.....and Gural is focused on a casino. He should be. That's his solution. If the referendum passes, and they give the casino to someone else, Gural ain't no dummy. He's smart. He will weigh getting his check for the unamortized cost of what he spent (and potentially closing), versus whatever revenue, subsidy, etc., deal he would make. MGM and Genting may have an edge in NY, but Gural has to hope they get the casino license for downstate. If he claims he's losing money now, what's the point of arguing and to what end. Anyone and everyone's opinion, bitching and moaning, accusations, etc., doesn't count for anything. Positive, negative, part of the problem, solution, whatever. Me, I want to see what happens at the next two meetings and what Gural does and handles the CAW situation-----if he does-----even though it will not bring about a substantial increase in handle.
Hoosier is going to buck that trend with prewitt. He lowered take out, got rid of junk jackpot wagers, adjusted minimums which will create Carryovers and doesn't treat people who wager on horse racing as 3rd class, degenerate, pieces of shit like all the other tracks. There is plenty that meadowlands can do to increase handle if they really wanted to care about it while they wait for a casino.
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Those are 2 reasons there will be a casino in Northern N J. As soon as NJ sees all the jersey license plates at Aqueduct casino the ball will start rolling.
nonsense--but it is a very popular theory
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A ballot question was asked (want to say 5 years ago) and people voted was like 80% to no casino in northern NJ. Roads are disaster, people here are getting taxed to death, I don’t see a casino happening in northern NJ and I’m not sure why Gural thinks this is going to change.
First, the question on the referendum was would you approve casinos outside AC----not would you approve a casino at the Meadowlands. That's the first difference. Like I said I think you will get two different answers----and again, maybe not enough to pass, but still I think it will be different. This is what Gural thinks. He's said so. Second, maybe it changes things, maybe it doesn't, but when casinos open in downstate NY, that may change people's----and politicians---minds.
NJ residents have always been of the NIMBY mindset----casinos, low income housing, senior housing, shopping malls, and so on. The difference is that nobody lives at the Meadowlands. Sure, the closest residents might disapprove. I get it. But like I said, it may not pass, but I think it changes things.
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Saturday 3/15 handle
$3,067,559
11 out of 21 cards handling over $3 million
$513,048 below break even point
Friday 3/21 handle
$2,645,674
11 out of 22 cards handling over $3 million
$867,374 below break even point
Saturday 3/22 handle
$3,208, 633
12 out of 23 cards handling over $3 million
$658,741 below break even point
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Race all year and lose a million just a small write off for Gural and his billionaire friends.
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Gural loves the sport and is a big contributor to harness racing. When Tioga had that fire he stepped up huge.
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https://nypost.com/2025/03/30/us-news/mets-owner-steve-cohens-8b-casino-project-near-citi-field-gets-big-boost-from-lawmaker-with-bill-to-build-on-parkland/
While downstate casinos won't overcome NIMBY, I think the NJ politicians will certainly be watching and listening. There is a tipping point. At some point, the AC casinos and their lobbyists will simply not have enough money and clout to overcome what a casino, or three, would generate in revenue, economic benefit (vis a vis jobs pre, during, and post, labor, etc.), and tax dollars, outside of AC.
Remember, when the question is asked: Do you oppose casinos outside AC? You are going to get overwhelmingly no responses. However, when Eagleton, POS, etc., did their focus groups and polls, and they asked the question: Do you oppose a casino at the Meadowlands? The answers were very different. Nobody lives at the Meadowlands. Those who live nearby, East Rutherford, Rutherford, Moonachie, and so on-----they are not worried about their town turning into AC. AC, outside the casino, boardwalk, etc., never got better. Moonachie ain't getting worse. LOL.
I say within 15 years. If Vegas is taking odds, I would bet it. I'd also bet smaller on 10 years, and I might throw away money for approval in 5. LOL.
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Friday 3/21 handle
$2,645,674
11 out of 22 cards handling over $3 million
$867,374 below break even point
Saturday 3/22 handle
$3,208, 633
12 out of 23 cards handling over $3 million
$658,741 below break even point
Friday 3/28 handle
$2,695,318
12 out of 24 cards handling over $3 million
$963,423 below break even point
Saturday 3/29 handle
$3,205,187
13 out of 25 cards handling over $3 million
$758,236 below break even point
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Here's an article from the NY Post regarding possible development at the Meadowlands sports complex down the road from the track. The plan is convention center and hotel. Could this lead to casino as well??? That is the question.
https://nypost.com/2025/03/30/us-news/meadowlands-arena-has-has-surprising-uses-since-it-closed-10-years-ago-including-to-film-walking-dead-but-it-may-soon-be-gone-for-good/
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Here's an article from the NY Post regarding possible development at the Meadowlands sports complex down the road from the track. The plan is convention center and hotel. Could this lead to casino as well??? That is the question.
https://nypost.com/2025/03/30/us-news/meadowlands-arena-has-has-surprising-uses-since-it-closed-10-years-ago-including-to-film-walking-dead-but-it-may-soon-be-gone-for-good/
There's a lot of land there, LOL. There's more too, not just the old arena, but all over the complex. There was a plan floated to do something where the old grandstand used to be, relocate the paddock, and then you have that entire side of the track-----hospitality, retail, commercial, whatever. Sure, some of it probably isn't a good idea, but you never know.....and yes, there's space for a casino, LOL, maybe in 15 years, LOL. That American Dream mall is a problematic scenario, and the recent lawsuit can have some very serious ramifications throughout Bergen County. Too bad the only team in town is the Jets and Giants. Although the arena was a $hitshow from day one, you had the Jets/Giants, Devils, and Nets, and the economics made sense, but the facilities didn't. Too bad.
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Here's an article from the NY Post regarding possible development at the Meadowlands sports complex down the road from the track. The plan is convention center and hotel. Could this lead to casino as well??? That is the question.
https://nypost.com/2025/03/30/us-news/meadowlands-arena-has-has-surprising-uses-since-it-closed-10-years-ago-including-to-film-walking-dead-but-it-may-soon-be-gone-for-good/
still dreaming I see