2019 Ontario Welfare

[wiggles44]

Wiggles.  ....   I have no issues wth your data presented for Saturday the 17th.  Those are the reality.  I had simple called you out for flagging a 70k gap at Clinton on the OSS purse day was poor, misleading information.

so a 70k gap is ok because it was an OSS day?
you're dancing around the obvious slim
and we both know that

[Papillon]

are those handle numpers USD or Canadian?

[wiggles44]

Sunday August 18

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $36,400
Total Handle: $25,206

Georgian Downs
Total Purse:  $311,400
Total Handle: $210,244

Leamington Raceway
Total Purse:  $43,000
Total Handle: $36,860

all canadian dollars
all "misleading" information

all 

[wiggles44]

Saturday August 24

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $208,400
Total Handle: $33,947

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $48,300
Total Handle: $23,635

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $39,700
Total Handle: $27,864

did the families have fun?
 

[slimshady]

Georgian Downs
Total Purse:  $311,400           includes 156k gold and 75k earl rowe   
Total Handle: $210,244

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $208,400          includes 6 OSS for 130k and 56k for Balanced Image
Total Handle: $33,947

No one had any expectation of covering those purses.
You're back to cherry picking, to make it look as ugly as possible.

[slimshady]

I'm not defending anything.  I'm challenging cherry picked numbers, that present as ugly a picture as possible.  Tracks in Ontario host oss races, that no one in the racing world expects the handle to cover the purse.   I just think it's like fake news to post those, leading people to believe they are the normal purses and handles for those tracks. 

As for Standardbred racing, if it fails, it fails.  Won't affect my future or quality of life one iota.
But calling it welfare is truly ignorant.
Guys that I know in the industry, work a hell of a lot harder than folks I know outside of it.

[Powerful Patricks Ghost]

Guys that I know in the industry, work a hell of a lot harder than folks I know outside of it.

They can work 90 hours a week, if no one is interested, it is a government handout. Plain and simple. Sure the Conestoga Wagon makers were hard workers but the government didnt bail them out because Ford rolled into town with a superior product.

[Field_In_Motion]

ITS A DEAD GAME.

[wiggles44]

Sunday August 25

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $39,400
Total Handle: $38,464

Leamington Raceway
Total Purse:  $44,400
Total Handle: $39,218

"No one had any expectation of covering those purses"

who covered these purses?

[slimshady]

"Wiggles.  ....   I have no issues wth your data presented for Saturday the 17th.  Those are the reality.  I had simply called you out for flagging a 70k gap at Clinton on the OSS purse day, was poor, misleading information."

Hey Wiggles, like I said before, I have no issue with you providing information from regular track days.
Selling 130k gaps at Hanover on a special OSS day is bull shit.

Showing Clinton missing by 1k is a weekly reality.

Now, how much money Clinton racing adds to the local economy, over and above handle, is certainly worth a conversation.  When you shut the track down, how many people really join the welfare system?  How much revenue does the local feed mill lose?    How much revenue does the local company providing food to the track lose?     

[Powerful Patricks Ghost]

Now, how much money Clinton racing adds to the local economy, over and above handle, is certainly worth a conversation.  When you shut the track down, how many people really join the welfare system?  How much revenue does the local feed mill lose?    How much revenue does the local company providing food to the track lose?     

Bullshit argument that can be used by nearly ANY industry if it were true. There is zero net positive economic revenue that would be lost beyond the amount of subsidies given to the horsemen. If the theory held true that there is such a positive multiplier effect on local economies, then why wouldn't you subsidize purses to a greater extent? After all, it's going to be a boon to the local economy. Why isn't this done? Because it's complete hogwash.


Further, let's suppose this argument is true: that the local auxiliary horse people would be greatly affected by racing shutting down. If that's the case, why aren't they getting slots subsidies? What makes the racing itself more important? Clearly there isn't interest in the sport itself or handle would be much higher. If these people are so vital, why not break them off a piece of the slots subsidies?

[slimshady]

Settle down PPG    ....    I asked the question.  I didn't provide the answer.
You seem pretty confident in your understanding of the financial impact, so why don't you share some data that we can all have a look at?

"There is zero net positive economic revenue that would be lost beyond the amount of subsidies given to the horsemen."
Today, track open   $1000 in govt subsidy    $1000 to horsemen in purses      $500  to local businesses

Track closed              $0 subsidy                      $0 to horsemen                       $0 to local businesses

That isn't net zero.    That is net  $500  loss 

[Powerful Patricks Ghost]

Settle down PPG    ....    I asked the question.  I didn't provide the answer.
You seem pretty confident in your understanding of the financial impact, so why don't you share some data that we can all have a look at?

"There is zero net positive economic revenue that would be lost beyond the amount of subsidies given to the horsemen."
Today, track open   $1000 in govt subsidy    $1000 to horsemen in purses      $500  to local businesses

Track closed              $0 subsidy                      $0 to horsemen                       $0 to local businesses

That isn't net zero.    That is net  $500  loss

Do you think that $1000 just materializes out of thin air?  Will the people who are making money servicing horseman just stop working because the government subsidy isn't there?

No. Anyone who has enough unique skills will either move to a place that provides income for their skills, or they will need to find other work that pays them. 

Speaking of providing numbers, can you show that $1000 in purse subsidies directly translates to $500 to local businesses?


There are reams of data dispelling the notion of economic impact for subsidies.

As for specific data regarding economic impact in podunk Canadian towns, there isn't any because no economist in their right mind would ever study such a thing. If you'd like an analog study, I'm sure I can find plenty.

[slimshady]

Do you think that $1000 just materializes out of thin air?  Will the people who are making money servicing horseman just stop working because the government subsidy isn't there? **** The person who is grooming the track.  The person who is selling tickets.   Yes, if the track closes, they will stop working.  It is a matter of, for how long.    No, the ferrier won't stop working, but you can bet your last dollar, his income is going to be reduced.  ****

No. Anyone who has enough unique skills will either move to a place that provides income for their skills, or they will need to find other work that pays them. **** And how many of the support people have "unique" skills.   We're not talking about the affect on a lawyer or accountant.   We're talking about a real affect on the small shop owner and the minimum wage person working at the track.  Those folks don't necessarily find a new job the next day or month. **** 

Speaking of providing numbers, can you show that $1000 in purse subsidies directly translates to $500 to local businesses?   I was presenting it as an argument.   Not sure if it is 500, 45 or 4500, but for sure it isn't zero as you presented. 

There are reams of data dispelling the notion of economic impact for subsidies.  *** The internet is a big place.   If I look long enough I can find reams of data supporting the reverse.  I'd start with any union involved in the business getting the subsidy.  I'm sure they will have pounds of paper to support why the business needs to stay open.  *****

As for specific data regarding economic impact in podunk Canadian towns, there isn't any because no economist in their right mind would ever study such a thing. If you'd like an analog study, I'm sure I can find plenty.    **** But we are talking about small town tracks.   We aren't talking about GM in Detroit.  How has it worked out in the USA in all those towns where steel mills closed down.  They went from bustling communities with folks making money to boarded up main streets and folks on welfare. ***   

[Calhoun]

Do you think that $1000 just materializes out of thin air?  Will the people who are making money servicing horseman just stop working because the government subsidy isn't there? **** The person who is grooming the track.  The person who is selling tickets.   Yes, if the track closes, they will stop working.  It is a matter of, for how long.    No, the ferrier won't stop working, but you can bet your last dollar, his income is going to be reduced.  ****

No. Anyone who has enough unique skills will either move to a place that provides income for their skills, or they will need to find other work that pays them. **** And how many of the support people have "unique" skills.   We're not talking about the affect on a lawyer or accountant.   We're talking about a real affect on the small shop owner and the minimum wage person working at the track.  Those folks don't necessarily find a new job the next day or month. **** 

Speaking of providing numbers, can you show that $1000 in purse subsidies directly translates to $500 to local businesses?   I was presenting it as an argument.   Not sure if it is 500, 45 or 4500, but for sure it isn't zero as you presented. 

There are reams of data dispelling the notion of economic impact for subsidies.  *** The internet is a big place.   If I look long enough I can find reams of data supporting the reverse.  I'd start with any union involved in the business getting the subsidy.  I'm sure they will have pounds of paper to support why the business needs to stay open.  *****

As for specific data regarding economic impact in podunk Canadian towns, there isn't any because no economist in their right mind would ever study such a thing. If you'd like an analog study, I'm sure I can find plenty.    **** But we are talking about small town tracks.   We aren't talking about GM in Detroit.  How has it worked out in the USA in all those towns where steel mills closed down.  They went from bustling communities with folks making money to boarded up main streets and folks on welfare. ***

Slim Shitty,

You should stick to being a racist and a xenophobe.

This Economics stuff is far beyond your abilities.