How much would you pay for Marcus Miller to fly in and drive your horse?

[Fuguzzi]

You're getting confused by 18,000. A HOF driver should have won big races like triple crown, Meadowlands Pace, NA Cup etc. Morgan hasn't. Ben Webster's resume is much better than Morgan's. Shouldn't he get in before him?

Webster is a "fence sitter". 3 world champions a big plus, a Ny Metro mainstay another plus. Notorious race fixer who figured prominently in 2 big scandals and while many people I have encountered along the way liked Benny, many didn't.  I get the fact that Tony only won a handful of important races, but many people with stellar careers just dont get the chance nor are chosen to drive in them. I just dont see how we throw 18,000 wins away. They had plenty of time to put Benny in, they didn't and Hell, he was right across the street.

One other thing, there has to be room for guys who win a ton of races regardless of whether they did the Grand Circuit / Triple Crown thing. I mean what are they gonna do with Aaron Merriman in 5 years or so when is flirting with 20,000? Say, Oh but he never won this or drove there?

Teddy Wing. Great horseman, skilled driver, fine trainer. I used him several times to catch drive and knew his outfit well. watched him as a kid. Very respected and popular. Around 5000 wins, Skip By Night, a few driving titles and they out him in. I saw his whole career up close. Where are his major grand circuit wins and Triple Crown and Breeders Crown wins. I know he defeated On The Road Again once in an important race and OTD on Kerry Gold a nice raceway horse. I think he once drove Tarport Hap.  Knew him well and was there went he went in and shook his hand. Definitely a worthwhile choice, but would you take him over Tony Morgan to drive a horse for you anywhere at any time?

[Stan durbread]

Pete Rose was a great ball player. Will never be in HOF. Also you gotta wonder why when they moved to east coast Tony could no longer compete with Tetrick and A. Miller

[Fuguzzi]

Pete Rose was a great ball player. Will never be in HOF. Also you gotta wonder why when they moved to east coast Tony could no longer compete with Tetrick and A. Miller

How does the Pete Rose analogy work. he broke the cardinal rule, then confessed to it, sign the deal with Bart Giamatti, a good deent man, then after Giamatti died, Rose pretended there was no deal and trashed Giamatti's name when the man was no longer around. Pete Rose was trailer trash who could hit a baseball. Of course he would be in the HOF if he hadn't fucked himself up and then lied. Plus, he's been a bust out since.

[Stan durbread]

How does the Pete Rose analogy work. he broke the cardinal rule, then confessed to it, sign the deal with Bart Giamatti, a good deent man, then after Giamatti died, Rose pretended there was no deal and trashed Giamatti's name when the man was no longer around. Pete Rose was trailer trash who could hit a baseball. Of course he would be in the HOF if he hadn't fucked himself up and then lied. Plus, he's been a bust out since.

When Tony was getting going as a catch driver he got a hot test on one he trained.  Got 60 days. Went to the media and said he was not going to train anymore because he didn’t want to risk his driving career. Penny got a trainer’s license a few years later he got her a positive. She was never listed as trainer again. After that he used several down on their luck trainers as beards. Got everyone of them a positive then on too the next one. In the meantime he would stiff horses and tell guys to drop them in claimed. Boom his guy claimed them and back in conditions winning all of the sudden. After he got Bret Shultz a few positives he latched on to Hanson. Hanson couldn’t buy a cheeseburger but then all the sudden he was claiming horses for himself. All had been formally driven by Tony

[Fuguzzi]

Welcome to the wonderful world of harness racing. Top guys ( drivers ) at almost all tracks pulled the same shit. Reason you don't hear about it today is, as you know, all top catch drivers don't train or maintain a stable anymore. They don't need to, to make a living. otherwise it would still be going on.

[Stan durbread]

Welcome to the wonderful world of harness racing. Top guys ( drivers ) at almost all tracks pulled the same shit. Reason you don't hear about it today is, as you know, all top catch drivers don't train or maintain a stable anymore. They don't need to, to make a living. otherwise it would still be going on.

Yea well Tony is a greedy pig. Look at how many Chrissmans have had a hot test since he landed in Delaware

[Stan durbread]

To be fair I don’t think Palone should be in HOF either. He never could play with the best. That should be main criteria for HOF

[MIKE CAMPBELL]

Webster is a "fence sitter". 3 world champions a big plus, a Ny Metro mainstay another plus. Notorious race fixer who figured prominently in 2 big scandals and while many people I have encountered along the way liked Benny, many didn't.  I get the fact that Tony only won a handful of important races, but many people with stellar careers just dont get the chance nor are chosen to drive in them. I just dont see how we throw 18,000 wins away. They had plenty of time to put Benny in, they didn't and Hell, he was right across the street.

One other thing, there has to be room for guys who win a ton of races regardless of whether they did the Grand Circuit / Triple Crown thing. I mean what are they gonna do with Aaron Merriman in 5 years or so when is flirting with 20,000? Say, Oh but he never won this or drove there?

Teddy Wing. Great horseman, skilled driver, fine trainer. I used him several times to catch drive and knew his outfit well. watched him as a kid. Very respected and popular. Around 5000 wins, Skip By Night, a few driving titles and they out him in. I saw his whole career up close. Where are his major grand circuit wins and Triple Crown and Breeders Crown wins. I know he defeated On The Road Again once in an important race and OTD on Kerry Gold a nice raceway horse. I think he once drove Tarport Hap.  Knew him well and was there went he went in and shook his hand. Definitely a worthwhile choice, but would you take him over Tony Morgan to drive a horse for you anywhere at any time?

Benny won the Hambo, Messenger, Kentucky Futurity,LBJ, OTB Classic which at the time was one of the richest horse races. When he was in his prime, there were not many better. On a nightly basis, he competed against the best ever. In NY, he drove every night against Haughton, Dancer, Carmine, Insko, Chapman, Buddy, Sholty,Filion, Fontaine..ALL HALL OF FAMERS. I won't even get to his Meadowlands days where he drove against ALL HALL OF FAMERS. Tony Morgan's competition pales in comparison, not to mention the fact that he never won any big races.

[MIKE CAMPBELL]

According to USTA, as of this morning, Morgan has 17,431 driving wins

[Fuguzzi]

I acknowledged Webster won those races with 3 world champions. I think he suffered because of the race fixing scandals of the 70s. Given what you say, why else didn't they put him in? I M O, Herve, Carmine, Gilmour, Insko and Fontaine were on a higher plane than Webster. Maybe that's why they're in. He isn't.It is true that Tony only won a Jugette, a Woodrow Wilson and a Breeder's Crown event. He did win 3 National Driving Titles. And over 17,000 races along the way. Some guys just aren't perceived that way.

You and I both go back to Carmine. Didn't go near Grand Circuit. I remember some moments like Never Wrong winning a Cane Pace elim, a Levy and a Sheppard, he never won significant races. Tried Chicago - that didn't work. Never ventured to jersey despite his brother being very connected there. Plus, as a horseman, Carmine couldn't train a ball to roll down hill. Of course, he won 7,500 races in NY Metro in an era when that was HUGE and that got him in the HOF!  Point is you dont HAVE to be a Grand Circuit force. Yes Carmine did it on a big stage, but back in the day Chicago mattered too. I have no personal bias where Carmine is concerned, In fact, I was part of a group that owned horses in his stable. Jack Tashjian, then Bobby Siegelman days.

[Fuguzzi]

To be fair I don’t think Palone should be in HOF either. He never could play with the best. That should be main criteria for HOF

I am not the biggest Dave Palone fan either, but I have to relent at 20,000 wins.

[Fuguzzi]

I also never got the Cat Manzi thing either.

[MIKE CAMPBELL]

I acknowledged Webster won those races with 3 world champions. I think he suffered because of the race fixing scandals of the 70s. Given what you say, why else didn't they put him in? I M O, Herve, Carmine, Gilmour, Insko and Fontaine were on a higher plane than Webster. Maybe that's why they're in. He isn't.It is true that Tony only won a Jugette, a Woodrow Wilson and a Breeder's Crown event. He did win 3 National Driving Titles. And over 17,000 races along the way. Some guys just aren't perceived that way.

You and I both go back to Carmine. Didn't go near Grand Circuit. I remember some moments like Never Wrong winning a Cane Pace elim, a Levy and a Sheppard, he never won significant races. Tried Chicago - that didn't work. Never ventured to jersey despite his brother being very connected there. Plus, as a horseman, Carmine couldn't train a ball to roll down hill. Of course, he won 7,500 races in NY Metro in an era when that was HUGE and that got him in the HOF!  Point is you dont HAVE to be a Grand Circuit force. Yes Carmine did it on a big stage, but back in the day Chicago mattered too. I have no personal bias where Carmine is concerned, In fact, I was part of a group that owned horses in his stable. Jack Tashjian, then Bobby Siegelman days.

First of all, Carmine did leave NY and tried The Meadowlands. In fact, he made the first Meadowlands commercial in 1976 where he drove a horse across the GW Bridge signifying that he was moving to NJ. He didn't do too well and eventually went back to NY but later, Robbie Siegelman started training his horses and they ended up back at M1. Barn 6B. I was in 6C. Carmine was past his prime by then.

[Fuguzzi]

i know. Like he said at the time. Going back to NY to stay. Evening Choice, Columbia Lee were a couple of mine. partners were 2 Greek guys.

[Fuguzzi]

Carmine "the horseman", tried to be a smart ass with me when he took the lines, looked at the horse and said, "I don't drive horses with shit towels". I said, "would you prefer to drive him with out one". i didn't put him down, judges ssigned him without contacting me when my guy got days.