No BC Talk

[Brown jug]

valid points
 i am not concerned who owns what tracks or personalities or who bets what
my point being if harness racing is not strong in new jersey the sport will rapidly decline and the big m is the only track, the breeding part is coming back
Ohio and Indiana will not carry the sport
pa in decline
ny holding on
and Kentucky is fantastic but its Kentucky

[Bitter Truth]

Much is said, and rightfully so: What happens if and/or when the slot $$ dries up at these numerous tracks? To your point, what happens when Gural passes? He's no spring chicken. Is there a plan B for M[1]?

[SeattleSlew]

Much is said, and rightfully so: What happens if and/or when the slot $$ dries up at these numerous tracks? To your point, what happens when Gural passes? He's no spring chicken. Is there a plan B for M[1]?

It could well be before Gural passes, as NJ has been sending the Meadowlands a $6 million annual purse subsidy, which is year to year and could disappear after the 5 year NJ $100mm racing support bill is over (as it is, it goes year to year..but I believe 2024 is the last year.)

[Fuguzzi]

An amusement park maybe?

[Bitter Truth]

Fuguzzi.. One you at least a partial apology...Was thinking before your post that I have made a number of posts in this topic, unrelated in many ways to the BC. Got steered by talk of possible BC sites. Can see how it can and does happen.

[Fuguzzi]

No need to apologize for anything. It is so easy to veer off, overlap and deviate from a core topic on here. In fact, I think adding layers of different info that are offshoots from the original topic enhances the discussions. I would qualify that by saying as long as it stays confined to harness racing in some way. I think we are an awesome site as long as the name calling doesnt happen There are some great contributors on here - most in fact and i look forward to communicating every day.

[MIKE CAMPBELL]

Yup, strangely[perhaps out of habit] people are willing to support the self -imposed 'SAVIOR'S track. Tough to prove but I think there's a consensus that a great chunk of that 'HANDLE' comes from Syndicate, 'Whale' type entities that are given special considerations. But from a horseman's perspective,don't see the extra attraction...Can't be cheap or fun to get in and out of there. Like they could give rat's ass how much is wagered. Thus the very 'AVERAGE' [at best] cards..Nice back and forth..No offense. Just don't like em.

You are wrong on so many levels, I wonder if you have ever been to a racetrack. Firstly, who gives a rats ass(your words) where the handle is coming from as long as it's coming. The Meadowlands doesn't have a sugar daddy casino to pump up its purses. Yes, the state has kicked in but that is a small percentage of what it takes to pay out the purses and keep the lights on. Secondly, whether the cards are average or not, they averaged over 3 million in handle in 2023. No other harness track can make that claim so apparently average cards aren't an issue. I personally think the cards are fine and I can promise you, as a person who raced there for years, it is still the hardest place to win a race. And finally, having a large handle is also advantageous because it is the only place large bettors can wager. How the fuck can anyone make a 10-20 grand wager at any other track without blowing up the tote board.

[Fuguzzi]

You make great points. In the day, it was definitely the toughest place to win a race. The talent and horsemanship was so deep, it is hard to quantify. Do you feel it is still the toughest place to win. Another question? As somebody asked earlier, exactly what does happen once JG passes away unfortunately? Is the whole "integrity thing" gone with him and all the shady characters ( pardon the pun - great racehorse ) return? one more question? Does Brett Beckwith take a shot at the BigM soon?

[Bitter Truth]

I said 'THE HORSEMAN' could give a rats's ass..I stand by that..Most mock gamblers.. Now if you take away the supplements ie state or casino $$..they might then..Believe me though. To question if I've ever been to a track, it's truly laughable. Just tallied em up... 21 harness tracks not including 'AT LEAST' a dozen fair tracks..7 t-bred tracks..5 dog tracks. Don't figure I'm going to be affecting pools too greatly wherever I bet. Hey, you like em..have at em, while they are still around.

[MIKE CAMPBELL]

You make great points. In the day, it was definitely the toughest place to win a race. The talent and horsemanship was so deep, it is hard to quantify. Do you feel it is still the toughest place to win. Another question? As somebody asked earlier, exactly what does happen once JG passes away unfortunately? Is the whole "integrity thing" gone with him and all the shady characters ( pardon the pun - great racehorse ) return? one more question? Does Brett Beckwith take a shot at the BigM soon?

It is still the hardest place to win a race. I have seen countless horses dominate at their "home track" and decide to take a shot at M1. Most fail. 1/4 mile stretch separates the contenders from the pretenders. If Gural retires, I think it will be run in a similar fashion. I don't know enough about Beckwith to know if he would be successful. I raced at Foxboro against his grandfather and I can tell you he was damn good but he never made it on the big stage. I would say Brett needs to try and get his foot in the door during the winter meet when many of the stars are away.

[MIKE CAMPBELL]

I said 'THE HORSEMAN' could give a rats's ass..I stand by that..Most mock gamblers.. Now if you take away the supplements ie state or casino $$..they might then..Believe me though. To question if I've ever been to a track, it's truly laughable. Just tallied em up... 21 harness tracks not including 'AT LEAST' a dozen fair tracks..7 t-bred tracks..5 dog tracks. Don't figure I'm going to be affecting pools too greatly wherever I bet. Hey, you like em..have at em, while they are still around.

Well, apparently you are not a horseman because any horseman I know is always concerned about the handle. Handle is what ultimately puts food on our tables. Look at Monticello. Purses dropped starting tomorrow. I am sure there are plenty of horsemen concerned.

[Bitter Truth]

I'll defer to your expertise, for no I'm not a horseman [just an avid fan for @55 yrs], but most are just riding the free $$ wave. Not thinking of gamblers but more so politicians, knowing they'll be the ones deciding their fate.

[Fuguzzi]

It is still the hardest place to win a race. I have seen countless horses dominate at their "home track" and decide to take a shot at M1. Most fail. 1/4 mile stretch separates the contenders from the pretenders. If Gural retires, I think it will be run in a similar fashion. I don't know enough about Beckwith to know if he would be successful. I raced at Foxboro against his grandfather and I can tell you he was damn good but he never made it on the big stage. I would say Brett needs to try and get his foot in the door during the winter meet when many of the stars are away.

Bert Beckwith was indeed a great driver and horseman. Remember Mel? Had a trotter named Mr. Nashua. Loved that horse. Yes, I was thinking Brett might take a run at the winter meet. I think he would do well right off. PS, very sad that Bert hung himself at 41, I think over a woman.

[MIKE CAMPBELL]

I'll defer to your expertise, for no I'm not a horseman [just an avid fan for @55 yrs], but most are just riding the free $$ wave. Not thinking of gamblers but more so politicians, knowing they'll be the ones deciding their fate.

Horse racing gets a bad rap when it comes to the so called hand outs. All industries are searching and taking hand outs in one form or another. Whether it is tax breaks, bail outs, bankruptcy protection etc. that is how business entities operate in todays world. 95% of the products you buy are made by companies that have received billions in incentives. Companies are lured to Europe and Asia by those governments with sweetheart deals such as no taxes, free land, no labor enforcement etc. 

[Bitter Truth]

That reminds me of the Trump backers [I voted for him before..[NO WAY now] You bring up one of his transgressions and they say oh well, Hillary did this, Clinton did that, Hunter did this,  or they all do it.  Well , fact is harness 'IS' being fueled by those subsidies and not by your 'HANDLE'. I've lived thru the entire cards of 2-3 k purses here in Ohio before they got the slot $$. If they take it away, they'll be right back there here and in alot of places. Horseman like you will be forced to make life decisions.