Moreau scratches

[Grandstand Handicapper]

It would be cost prohibitive to get a toxicology report for every prospective drug in the horses system on a potential purchase. Are you going to test for EPO, etorphine,carfentanyl, frog juice, glaucine, fentanyl, oxy, aminorex etc etc etc.it would run you into the thousands if not 10k to complete. One could argue since he hadn't had a positive by the racing regulators that he would be clean. Fact of the matter is the shit is in the horses system and there has been an intentional attempt to misrepresent the horses worth by the presence of an illegal ped regardless of whether it was Richard or Sylvain that did the injections. Any judge or jury with a registering IQ could reasonably assume that the use of DPO was to enhance its value, fraud was committed and void the contract.

Really? Possibly up to $10k for everything? And even at that, it's still not "everything" because (people claim) there are drugs they still don't have tests for.

I hope you are correct!!! I so very much do. All things known/considered, it would only be a good thing for the sport and business if this deal was voided and the buyer got his money back!

[hoosierboy]

Is it possible there was still some left in his system for meadowlands  pace elmin and Andy comes up with positive?

[helpplease]

While nothing should surprise me in this business I would have thought it is highly unlikely that Moreau gave this DPO to this or any other horse. He has been on top of the hill for many years & I'm guessing he has been tested every which way possible including out of competition testing for many years. I'm hoping for the good of the industry the investigators find that someone close to this horse was on this drug & either contaminated him via hand transfer or pissed in the stall the horse spent time in. The testing today from what I read is so precise it can pick up minute traces of drugs that in no way could affect the performance of a 1000 pound animal. It would sure help if the authorities would give this information to the public at the same time as releasing the infraction.   

[Brkn Headpole]

By the time a test picks up a"trace" amount of a certain drug you would need to reverse calculate its half life to estimate the actual amount that was given to the animal. DPO or any other brand of EPO is given by injection. The ole groom pissed in the stall excuse, poppyseed on bagels for contamination does not hold water. As for who gave it? Wouldn't matter so much in a civil suit. Moreau is the custodian of the horse as trainer of record and having the horse in his barn. He should be held liable for any repercussions. If he wants to rat out another party to prove his innocence thats more of a regulatory matter.

[firhill]

By the time a test picks up a"trace" amount of a certain drug you would need to reverse calculate its half life to estimate the actual amount that was given to the animal. DPO or any other brand of EPO is given by injection. The ole groom pissed in the stall excuse, poppyseed on bagels for contamination does not hold water. As for who gave it? Wouldn't matter so much in a civil suit. Moreau is the custodian of the horse as trainer of record and having the horse in his barn. He should be held liable for any repercussions. If he wants to rat out another party to prove his innocence thats more of a regulatory matter.

100% correct

[remington]

Agree the ole groom pissed in the stall is all bullshit

[Papillon]

Agree the ole groom pissed in the stall is all bullshit

Why would horses eat urine soaked hay?

Burke used this for multiple Oxycodone/Oxymorphone positives--yet he seems to get away with it.

Extensive out of competition testing would help--but i assume the industry either doesnt want to do it or pay for it.

[helpplease]

By the time a test picks up a"trace" amount of a certain drug you would need to reverse calculate its half life to estimate the actual amount that was given to the animal. DPO or any other brand of EPO is given by injection. The ole groom pissed in the stall excuse, poppyseed on bagels for contamination does not hold water. As for who gave it? Wouldn't matter so much in a civil suit. Moreau is the custodian of the horse as trainer of record and having the horse in his barn. He should be held liable for any repercussions. If he wants to rat out another party to prove his innocence thats more of a regulatory matter.

So are you saying that all drugs that are given intravenously can not ever be detected in a urine sample? If that is true I will knock that off my list of possibilities.

As for your comment "reverse calculate its half life to estimate the actual amount", if that can be done that would for sure help in any investigation.

[helpplease]

Why would horses eat urine soaked hay?

Burke used this for multiple Oxycodone/Oxymorphone positives--yet he seems to get away with it.

Extensive out of competition testing would help--but i assume the industry either doesnt want to do it or pay for it.

"Why would horses eat urine soaked hay?" Great question. I have watched animals eat their own & others shit before & asked myself that very question. 

[Ramnap]

The only way the groom pissed in the stall excuse works is if there has been a scientific study to where somebody actually loads up on oxycontin than pisses in a stall or they actually have to feed it to the horse then test the horse. Then that study would have to be replicated once or more times to actually prove that that works otherwise you can't claim something that you don't know or something called hypothetical

[Ramnap]

One more stupid thought. If you snort a bunch of Coke and even shove a little up your ass when you piss you don't piss out cocaine you piss out the breakdown by-products the metabolites and that ain't cocaine. Cuz if it was all the crackheads would piss in the jar and distill out the coke and then snort it again.

[Brkn Headpole]

So are you saying that all drugs that are given intravenously can not ever be detected in a urine sample? If that is true I will knock that off my list of possibilities.

As for your comment "reverse calculate its half life to estimate the actual amount", if that can be done that would for sure help in any investigation.

No I cannot confirm that all drugs given intravenously cannot be ever detected in a urine sample. DPO and like drugs are injected unlike oxycontin, cocaine, fentanyl (has various methods of delivery) which have been tried to use as excuses for contamination because they can be absorbed through coming in contact with said drugs.

As for trace amounts of a drug not affecting performance. The test finds a trace amount but that was after "x" number of half lives.

For example , say someone administered a drug 3 days out with a 2 hr half life. You would have 1.455192e9 or .000000001445192 left of the original amount of N=100. Is that a trace amount?

Again say someone gave a horse 2 days out of oxycontin 10 mgs which has an approx half live of 3 hrs. You would have  0.000152588 left of the original dosage by the time the test picks it up.

That is why I say you can estimate based on a range but would need further evidence to nail it down.

[Papillon]

The only way the groom pissed in the stall excuse works is if there has been a scientific study to where somebody actually loads up on oxycontin than pisses in a stall or they actually have to feed it to the horse then test the horse. Then that study would have to be replicated once or more times to actually prove that that works otherwise you can't claim something that you don't know or something called hypothetical

That is what i thought and obvious, but Burke and others have used the "environmental contamination" defense before and it has worked

completely absurd

[Harness racer]

It's all a joke!  Industry needs a huge overhaul.  I mess with SCM a lot, but he is spot on about the industry and it's key players.  The upper echelon is bulletproof.   Moreau must have pissed off somebody!

[Parked]

That is what i thought and obvious, but Burke and others have used the "environmental contamination" defense before and it has worked

completely absurd

It worked be ause the commission wanted it to work.