My first post

[JT]

Like when Artsplace raced as a 4 year old and went undefeated and still went on to have a great career as a sire

[Grandstand Handicapper]

I think he was 20 wins in 21 starts. I realize that's a full career nowadays... but I'm just old school I guess.im not saying race them 4 days a week like the clegg's do. It just goes back to a point I made earlier that it's a shame the greatest horses retire after 3 years old.

It's the business/economic model today. It's broken too. Another time discussion. MH was a very serious, dominant, did it easy, very talented trotter. Berndt Lindstedt was extremely impressed with him and paid him many compliments.

[MIKE CAMPBELL]

You geniuses with this theory that a horse has to race a certain amount of starts to be considered great is ridiculous. I guess Somebeachsomewher e was just a run of the mill creature.

[JT]

You geniuses with this theory that a horse has to race a certain amount of starts to be considered great is ridiculous. I guess Somebeachsomewher e was just a run of the mill creature.

This time you put words in my mouth. I never said Karl or Muscle Hill were not great because of lack of starts. I say to be considered the GREATEST dominating in the aged ranks at age 4 or 5 is a factor for me. Just my 2 cents. And not to beat a dead horse we don't know if Karl will race after this year.

[MIKE CAMPBELL]

This time you put words in my mouth. I never said Karl or Muscle Hill were not great because of lack of starts. I say to be considered the GREATEST dominating in the aged ranks at age 4 or 5 is a factor for me. Just my 2 cents. And not to beat a dead horse we don't know if Karl will race after this year.

Fine, SBSW didn't race at 4. However, if you put 100 REAL horsemen in a room, more than 3/4 would say he was the greatest pacer of all time.

[Papillon]

I think he was 20 wins in 21 starts. I realize that's a full career nowadays... but I'm just old school I guess.im not saying race them 4 days a week like the clegg's do. It just goes back to a point I made earlier that it's a shame the greatest horses retire after 3 years old.

The insurance to keep them on the track is very expensive

[Papillon]

Like when Artsplace raced as a 4 year old and went undefeated and still went on to have a great career as a sire

Artsplace was age 4 in 1992--times have changed

also, he was a champion 2yo and also undefeated at age 4

at age 3--ran into a Robinson juiced Precious Bunny-who kicked his ass all year

some say Artsplace was sick at age 3

[JT]

The insurance to keep them on the track is very expensive

Great point

[Papillon]

You geniuses with this theory that a horse has to race a certain amount of starts to be considered great is ridiculous. I guess Somebeachsomewher e was just a run of the mill creature.

SBSW only raced 18 times, mostly against Ontario Sire Stakes Gold Series competition

so yes, he wasnt even close the best ever

more clock staring

[Papillon]

Fine, SBSW didn't race at 4. However, if you put 100 REAL horsemen in a room, more than 3/4 would say he was the greatest pacer of all time.

Most of those horsemen must not have witnessed Niatross

[MIKE CAMPBELL]

SBSW only raced 18 times, mostly against Ontario Sire Stakes Gold Series competition

so yes, he wasnt even close the best ever

more clock staring

You're a fucking moron. He raced in the NA Cup. Meadowlands Pace, Confederation Cup, The Bluegrass, The Messenger, The Breeders Crown, The Burlington

[Papillon]

I loved Muscle Hill his record speaks for itself. I wish he would have raced as a 4 year old but I understand why he didn't. Had he raced as an older horse and dominated like he did at ages 2 and 3... He would be my GOAT. Just not enough starts to be my GOAT

possibly 3yo GOAT

but not up there with Mack Lobell or others on my list who raced at age 4 or 5

you cannot extrapolate a great 3yo and say he would also have been just as great at age 4 or age 5

[MIKE CAMPBELL]

possibly 3yo GOAT

but not up there with Mack Lobell or others on my list who raced at age 4 or 5

you cannot extrapolate a great 3yo and say he would also have been just as great at age 4 or age 5

More idiots with this requirement of racing at 4 or 5 to be considered the greatest. I guess the millions that watched Secretariat and called him the GOAT were also wrong.

[Papillon]

You're a fucking moron. He raced in the NA Cup. Meadowlands Pace, Confederation Cup, The Bluegrass, The Messenger, The Breeders Crown, The Burlington

You are the moron--most of those were in Canada and the ones you didnt mention were vs OSS Gold

MacGrath protected him, babied him to be undefeated and he failed.

The Bluegrass he was seeded as to avoid Art Official and he was extremely lucky to nose out Shadow Play in The Messenger

He lost the M1 Pace at 1/9 after Art Official arguably had a tougher trip

all other races were vs OSS

and he skipped the end of the year race at Dover for no excuse other than MacGrath knew he wasnt that great and a loss would have devastated the entire Canadian fan base

[rainman2]

Most of those horsemen must not have witnessed Niatross

That’s right!
39-37-0-0
I saw him live at Batavia Downs in 1980 live and in person!
Read the stat line above!  How many times will Karl race?
39 starts seems very unlikely!!