UGH OH - super horse Karl beat

[Miguel_Sanchez]

Mack Lobell 52.1 in an old wood Gerald with no quick hitch has to be 48-49 mile at worst.

[Grandstand Handicapper]

Pre quick hitch, and pre any of the other technological advantages.

What about the wheels?

[rainman2]

Thanks for making my point. Like I said, the only fact is time. All the other things you mentioned are maybe and probably. Equipment, medications, track surface are all subjective. Is today's bike 2 seconds faster, 3 seconds faster, 4 seconds faster. Is today's track surface 2 seconds faster, 3 seconds faster, 4 seconds faster. If you want to debate all those variables, have at it. I'm dealing with the only fact in horse racing and that is time. FACT..Cam Fella was a 1:53 pacer.

FYI, time has different connotations in different eras!

A big difference between racing in the 1970's through today 2024.

Better and lighter race bikes (off-center sulkies go faster), Lasix was in its infancy and growing popular as time went on.   Better food and medical advances and perhaps better improved training methods. Banked turns for more speed too!

1.53 was a great mark in the 1980's and made 2 million dollars too for Cam Fella!  Look at the horse and his accolades--the big and prestigious races that he won.  It got Cam Fella into the breeding shed and look at his influence on the sport!

FYI, in reality, money in the bank for the owners is the most important issue!  They don't put the time of the race on the check!

Please learn the game, MIKE!

What does it accomplish to continue your name-calling, nastiness, et al here on horseplop?

We all see your immaturuity that you don't play well with others when others don't agree with you!

Please stop your WHINING here and grow up and learn to respect others and their opinions here! 

Again, this is only horseplop!  A part of our lives but not the most important part of our lives!

What's it like to be the 'punching bag' of horseplop MIKE? 

[MIKE CAMPBELL]

Mack Lobell 52.1 in an old wood Gerald with no quick hitch has to be 48-49 mile at worst.

You can't prove that.

[MIKE CAMPBELL]

The only loser on here is you dumb fuck. This thread is 12 pages long now and there is 1 lame comment on page 3 that agrees with you. ONE comment out of 12 pages. Go through and reread if you're capable. You are either extremely stupid or really ignorant...Probab ly both. Those horses of the past that you scoffed at because of their lifetime mark made millions of dollars 30 or 40 years ago. That is a FACT. What would that be in today's money? But I doubt a dipshit like you who suggests to move the triple crown races,which nobody else agrees with would understand basic economics. .Yeah super move the jug to Saturday and today compete with the biggest race card at Parx, Aqueduct, Churchill, Millions of dollars of purses at Mohawk etc.. what a wonderful idea.. Maybe we could get the regulars on the Ohio fair circuit to drive the jug horses since they are at Mohawk tonight. Well maybe next Saturday oh no that wouldn't work all the good horses are in Lexington. It's a good thing you aren't connected to anybody in harness racing or all the tracks would be closed by now.

You're confusing me with someone who gives a fuck what you think.

[rainman2]

You can't prove that.

 
Many of us know better than you!

SAD BUT TRUE!

[rainman2]

You're confusing me with someone who gives a fuck what you think.

Here we go again!

More 'WHINING' and "CRYING"

SO SAD!

LAY DOWN MIKE, PLEASE LAY DOWN!

[MIKE CAMPBELL]

None of you morons have been able to prove anything. If you were a 1:53 trotter or pacer in the 70's or 80's, that is what you were. You can circle jerk each other for another 100 pages about how a different sulky, different track surface, better nutrition would have made those horses faster today but YOU CAN'T PROVE IT TO BE FACTUAL. All you are posting is opinions and unfortunately, you guys are a bunch of idiots and your opinions hold no fucking water. I didn't post an opinion, only 1 fact which is the time of the race. Doesn't it just suck to think you are right but you can't prove it.

[rainman2]

None of you morons have been able to prove anything. If you were a 1:53 trotter or pacer in the 70's or 80's, that is what you were. You can circle jerk each other for another 100 pages about how a different sulky, different track surface, better nutrition would have made those horses faster today but YOU CAN'T PROVE IT TO BE FACTUAL. All you are posting is opinions and unfortunately, you guys are a bunch of idiots and your opinions hold no fucking water. I didn't post an opinion, only 1 fact which is the time of the race. Doesn't it just suck to think you are right but you can't prove it.

Doesn't have to be PROVEN!

A little common sense goes a long way!  FYI, something you lack!

Please learn the game MIKE!

LAY DOWN MIKE, PLEASE LAY DOWN!!

[Third Over]

Y'all talkin wheels, quick hitch, wooden bikes and etc.. but remember back then the Arm n Hammer was notoriously used unlike today.. it was a 2-3 second enhancer, if today's top horses were shaked they'd be trotting in 47.!! Different eras cannot be compared.

[bond]

Mike- I agree on sticking to facts so let me just interrupt this post with my facts
Fact— despite breeding the best studs and mares over the last 50 years in THbreds- no horse has beaten the Triple Crown times of Secretariat so the Evolutionary principals you referred to earlier must not be working too well there
Now in Standardbreds Muscle Hill went 1.50.1 in 2009. Hasn’t been beaten yet- so that’s 15 years evolution hasn’t quite kicked in yet.
So the fact remains that Karl hasn’t beaten who I consider to be the GOAT of 3yo trotters-Time — nor has he been unbeaten at 3 and beaten everyone that lined up against him like MHILL did. Also when Muscle Gill went 1.50.1 he did that under v little urging and Sears has said he wasn’t going for any records and if he pushed him he would have gone under 1.50. Not a fact I know but I saw the race was there and can confirm he was capable of going faster.
Only way your theory about Karl being a GOAT coming to fruition is that he starts dominating the current tritters and starts breaking records— so a theory about Karl remains just that— a theory.

[Miguel_Sanchez]

I will give you one thing i do know for sure.  Mack Lobell was loaded with Equipoise as were all Chuckie's horses.  Equipoise was very prevalent back then.

[lost cause]

my 2 cents probably not worth 1 cent..... the best trotters i have seen are scarlett knight,varenne,muscle hill,bold eagle. karl very good wouldnt make my top 10

[Grandstand Handicapper]

Doesn't have to be PROVEN!

A little common sense goes a long way!  FYI, something you lack!

Please learn the game MIKE!

LAY DOWN MIKE, PLEASE LAY DOWN!!

I would think, and most people would argue subjectively, that common sense certainly has a part in this. However, certainly more objectively, is knowledge about horses. Knowing what you are looking at when watching horses race is all about not how fast a horse is doing something, but how he/she is doing what he/she is doing----doing it easy, all-out, gait, efficiency, pace, versatility, trip, game, not game, soundness, and so on and so on. There are countless elements you look at while watching a horse, and a horse race.

It's easy to watch Karl win the Hambo, look at the teletimer, and say he won, he's the best horse----in that race, that day. How that equates to GOAT I have absolutely no idea, LOL. I still confidently say that adding him to any GOAT list is rather imprudent and thoughtless. But, he won. So, that race, that day? In the division? For the year? Put him on a GOAT list? No. On the other hand, if you know what you are looking at, know about horses, are a good judge of horses, races, understand horse racing, etc.----his victory becomes very different. Did he get lucky? Did he trip out? Did the race go his way? Now, if you are the owner, what would you care, you still got the check and the check cleared! LOL.

So, I guess you could arrive at the conclusion that perhaps if you don't have common sense, then you can't really have the intellect, knowledge, capacity, etc., to really know about horses and horseracing.

[Grandstand Handicapper]

Y'all talkin wheels, quick hitch, wooden bikes and etc.. but remember back then the Arm n Hammer was notoriously used unlike today.. it was a 2-3 second enhancer, if today's top horses were shaked they'd be trotting in 47.!! Different eras cannot be compared.

So, goes the milkshaking negate the technological advancement of the equipment? As far as the different eras aspect, I absolutely agree with this. However, when I hear Bob Marks put Bret Hanover and Somebeachsomewher e on his pacers GOAT list, it's not comparing the two. The conversation is not the point. It is his judgment, assessment, his opinion on horses, what each one did, the crop, what they had done, AND how they did it, their talent, ability, capabilities, toughness, heart, taking EVERYTHING into consideration (and NOT the teletimer) and the qualified opinion that each horse was one of the GOAT he has seen. Qualified opinion. I keep landing back at one absolute though. Karl on a GOAT list? No. Zero chance.

Case in point, Cayster. Gene Kurzrok wanted to sell her. I think he bought her back out of the International Sale for $250k. He wanted some crazy number. He ended up selling her privately to Phil Tully. She raced more, and was sold to European connections. She was worth big money as a broodmare (at the time). Now, if someone put Cayster on their list of GOAT trotters, sure, you're entitled to your opinion. Great trotter. World Champion (at the time). But I would respectfully say it's easy to throw around the word great like I just did, but that doesn't get you anywhere near a GOAT list. So, if you put Cayster on your GOAT list, respectfully, that speaks to what you know about horses, your opinion, and so on.