UGH OH - super horse Karl beat

[rainman2]

I couldn't care less if someone picks a horse and says he's going to be one of the GOAT, and the horse flops, falters, whatever. So what. It's an opinion. Educated or not, informed or not, qualified or not, it's an opinion.....that and $5 gets you a fancy cup of coffee at Starbucks, LOL. Play games of semantics, insult people, name call, bully people, be nothing but a source of negativity and wasted band-width, then good riddance.

What is Karl's 'stud fee' now after this race?

FYI, I totally agree with your last sentence of this post!  I hope others do too!

[Grandstand Handicapper]

What is Karl's 'stud fee' now after this race?

FYI, I totally agree with your last sentence of this post!  I hope others do too!

I think I was the only person who said his stud fee would be $10k on the low side to $15k on the high side, and that was before today and before he got beat in the 3 weeks ago. Maybe, in addition to everything else, he was a bit short today due to the 3 weeks off. I don't know. I know plenty of breeders, intimately well. They just don't breed and buy "accolades" and stats, teletimers, etc. Every major breeder saw him in the Hambo. They saw him prior to the Hambo. And they've seen him since. He was not going to be a $25k stud. No way. Crawford would breed to him and support him, but that's because he owns him! LOL. I don't know how much Bender would support him and breed to him. Anyway, after today, you have to see if he races or skips the BC. If he's sound, and good, they'll race him. If he spits the bit and does nothing, he could still be a 10k stallion. If he turns around and wins, it's restoration for him....but even if that happens....he is not one of the GOAT. LOL.

[rainman2]

I think I was the only person who said his stud fee would be $10k on the low side to $15k on the high side, and that was before today and before he got beat in the 3 weeks ago. Maybe, in addition to everything else, he was a bit short today due to the 3 weeks off. I don't know. I know plenty of breeders, intimately well. They just don't breed and buy "accolades" and stats, teletimers, etc. Every major breeder saw him in the Hambo. They saw him prior to the Hambo. And they've seen him since. He was not going to be a $25k stud. No way. Crawford would breed to him and support him, but that's because he owns him! LOL. I don't know how much Bender would support him and breed to him. Anyway, after today, you have to see if he races or skips the BC. If he's sound, and good, they'll race him. If he spits the bit and does nothing, he could still be a 10k stallion. If he turns around and wins, it's restoration for him....but even if that happens....he is not one of the GOAT. LOL.

Does this mean that the syndicate has stopped paying MIKE CAMPBELL for his touting of Karl here on horseplop as well as anywhere else in the harness racing world?

[Grandstand Handicapper]

If he stands, I do think Diamond Creek will set the stud fee higher than what the real market is and support him, try to create a big bang year one with his average, and will try to artificially "create" a market that isn't really there. Kind of like they tried, unsuccessfully, with Ralph Hanover (this topic could take up an entire article----but, while he was a very lazy horse, he was given a very strong chance/opportunity to be a successful stallion, and other than making some fillies, was simply a dud).

[rainman2]

If he stands, I do think Diamond Creek will set the stud fee higher than what the real market is and support him, try to create a big bang year one with his average, and will try to artificially "create" a market that isn't really there. Kind of like they tried, unsuccessfully, with Ralph Hanover (this topic could take up an entire article----but, while he was a very lazy horse, he was given a very strong chance/opportunity to be a successful stallion, and other than making some fillies, was simply a dud).

If memory serves me correctly, Ralph Hanover won the pacing triple crown 1983.  I gather the class of 1983 was not that strong and he was in the right place at the right time. Also, if my memory is correct a 7 million dollar syndication fee.

Is part of the difference that a few horses that raced Karl got better at 3 while no horses got better in Ralph’s class at 3?

[Brown jug]

if you look at his rerecord karl is a very good horse  that anyone would love to own
he is by tactical landing who is producing nice horses and his maternal pedigree is ok( not stellar)
so he certainly could be a successful stallion or not , i guess time will tell

i did find it interesting that bowden and crawford had to make the annoucement that he was goin  to stud at diamond creek in 29025 before the futurity, they kind of chocked on that one

[gh2009]

I knew all season long the chances of him racing at 4 was almost zero because you'll make more money as a stallion.

[The Exporter]

I find it more along the lines of the high risk of devaluating his legacy. Every loss will now demiinsh his value and demand more than a win will add to it.

[SDST2009]

If he stands, I do think Diamond Creek will set the stud fee higher than what the real market is and support him, try to create a big bang year one with his average, and will try to artificially "create" a market that isn't really there. Kind of like they tried, unsuccessfully, with Ralph Hanover (this topic could take up an entire article----but, while he was a very lazy horse, he was given a very strong chance/opportunity to be a successful stallion, and other than making some fillies, was simply a dud).

Yes. I posted on the other thread re: Futurity, it seems to me Diamond Creek routinely sets too high of stud fees starting out. Look at Gimpanzee. No knock against him at all, super nice racehorse, but not dominant and stud fee opening year was $30k. Which dropped to $20k by 2024. They also ran Father Patrick up to $30k at one point, as he is now $10k (though to be fair I don't think he started at $30k).

However, Confederate started at $20k which to me is still a bit high but they cannot possibly set it that high for Karl, Confederate was far more dominant.

[Parked]

Had they left the breeding to him to be auctioned off and didn’t push, his fee would have been set ($5,000 ??) so it was easier to withdraw him….

[Grandstand Handicapper]

Had they left the breeding to him to be auctioned off and didn’t push, his fee would have been set ($5,000 ??) so it was easier to withdraw him….

Good point. I guess it was optimistic thinking, LOL.

[Grandstand Handicapper]

If memory serves me correctly, Ralph Hanover won the pacing triple crown 1983.  I gather the class of 1983 was not that strong and he was in the right place at the right time. Also, if my memory is correct a 7 million dollar syndication fee.

Is part of the difference that a few horses that raced Karl got better at 3 while no horses got better in Ralph’s class at 3?

RH was a pretty good horse. He was owned in part by his trainer Stew Firlotte, and Ron Waples. Off the top of my head, his 3yo class included Jamuga, Ticket To Ride, Glen Almahurst, Skirt Lifter, Joule, Kawartha Robust, Raffi, Allwin Steady, Power Bunny, Sterl Falcon, Fortune Teller, Savvy Almahurst, and other good horses. No GOAT's but good horses, LOL. He raced a lot at 2 with something like 15 starts, and I remember very well when he won the Bluegrass in 54 and 1. He had a hell of a campaign at 3 winning Messenger Stakes, Meadowlands Pace, and the Queen City Pace (which was the predecessor to the NA Cup. In one month, he raced three double-heat races----the Adios, the Cane, and the Prix d'Ete. He then came back and raced in fourth double-heat race, the Oliver Wendell Holmes and finished second by a nose. He then went on to win the LBJ in straight heats.

Yes, he was syndicated by Almahurst Farms for about $7mm. I don't know if it was the rest of the class, but Ralph wasn't a Karl at 2 and 3 scenario. Not IMO. You can argue it was not a strong crop, but he took on whoever showed up, LOL.

Like I said, Karl was absolutely dominant at 2. Heads and shoulders above his classmates. To the uneducated, visually he looked like a man amongst boys, so naturally someone who was not a good judge of horseflesh might get caught up in the "he is one of the GOAT" nonsense. I don't know one expert who thought so----other than maybe Jimmy Takter, LOL.

[Meadow Ford]

RH was a pretty good horse. He was owned in part by his trainer Stew Firlotte, and Ron Waples. Off the top of my head, his 3yo class included Jamuga, Ticket To Ride, Glen Almahurst, Skirt Lifter, Joule, Kawartha Robust, Raffi, Allwin Steady, Power Bunny, Sterl Falcon, Fortune Teller, Savvy Almahurst, and other good horses. No GOAT's but good horses, LOL. He raced a lot at 2 with something like 15 starts, and I remember very well when he won the Bluegrass in 54 and 1. He had a hell of a campaign at 3 winning Messenger Stakes, Meadowlands Pace, and the Queen City Pace (which was the predecessor to the NA Cup. In one month, he raced three double-heat races----the Adios, the Cane, and the Prix d'Ete. He then came back and raced in fourth double-heat race, the Oliver Wendell Holmes and finished second by a nose. He then went on to win the LBJ in straight heats.

Yes, he was syndicated by Almahurst Farms for about $7mm. I don't know if it was the rest of the class, but Ralph wasn't a Karl at 2 and 3 scenario. Not IMO. You can argue it was not a strong crop, but he took on whoever showed up, LOL.

Mr. Grandstand Handicapper.
"Off the top of your head " You say?
To recall that many horses from one age class and that many years ago is IMHO PHENOMENAL.
That must put you in a league with Marilyn Vos Savant.
I envy your memory!

[Grandstand Handicapper]

Mr. Grandstand Handicapper.
"Off the top of your head " You say?
To recall that many horses from one age class and that many years ago is IMHO PHENOMENAL.
That must put you in a league with Marilyn Vos Savant.
I envy your memory!

Lucky and isolated. I think I remember the crop because I was thinking of buying a share in RH and when I do I study the competition tremendously, in detail. I also had a few friends who had horses in that crop. It didn't help that RH kept beating them, LOL. Also, I wanted to buy Savvy Almahurst as 2yo, but Bob McIntosh and his owner didn't want to sell him, LOL.

I just thought about each of the big races and what horses were in them. A few others I just remember. I remember weird stuff, but I forgot what I had for dinner last night, LOL.

[Meadow Ford]

Lucky and isolated. I think I remember the crop because I was thinking of buying a share in RH and when I do I study the competition tremendously, in detail. I also had a few friends who had horses in that crop. It didn't help that RH kept beating them, LOL. Also, I wanted to buy Savvy Almahurst as 2yo, but Bob McIntosh and his owner didn't want to sell him, LOL.

I just thought about each of the big races and what horses were in them. A few others I just remember. I remember weird stuff, but I forgot what I had for dinner last night, LOL.

How are you at Jeopardy?
I watch it most days.
Maybe I should have put you in a league with Ken Jennings?