Karl

[Grandstand Handicapper]

Karl certinally is not building much of a resume for a stud career.  Has to be a soundness factor.  Cut his nuts out, give him a year off and see what happens.

Cut out a Hambo winner's nuts? That would be a first. LOL.

If he runs the table for three more starts, including the BC, I'd be shocked if his stud fee was higher than 15k. I said 10k, but others said 15k. I don't have any trotting mares anymore, but if I did and they were a good cross, I wouldn't be rushing to breed a mare to him.

[The Unstable]

how many races of the 21 were not in Canada?--with all due respect-thats hardly "dancing all the dances"

three at M1(he lost one)

two at Lexington

one at Yonkers

correct me if  I am wrong-i believe the other 15 were in Canada

skipped the Jug
skipped the Adios
skipped the Cane
skipped the Matron

never raced on a 5/8ths track his entire career

how many were Gold Series OSS?

NONE of his 2yo races were in the USA

The race he lost at Meadowlands he raced beyond incredible, parked 51.4 and 119.2. It might have been his best race ever and if you think Art Official who was on the rail all the way around had a tougher trip is simply not true.  The mile he raced at Yonkers parked against Shadow Place in a monsoon was sublime.

To criticize a horse and owners who won 20 of 21 races and didn't stay undefeated because he lost by a neck in 1.47 parked out has me lost for words.  1.47 was 1/5 off the world record set by Holborn as a older horse at Lexington. Oh and then he tied Holborn's world record winning in 46.4 by 7. And you somehow you believe it was a failure because he wasn't perfect . 

His greatness stands out.   

PS Holborn is the perfect example why time alone does not determine true greatness. 

[Call Sign Merlin]

I mean he was Canadian bred and they have a pretty good program so it kind of makes sense.

If they were protecting him they wouldn’t have raced him in the slop on a half at Yonkers in November.  That may have been his best mile

[Grandstand Handicapper]

I asked every person who I respected and admired in this industry what they thought of SBSW. Not that their opinion would change mind. When the syndication deal was announced, I was buying a share in him from day one. There are many widely accepted experts in the sport/business. Bob Boni is one. I may not be a fan of his, but, aside from being one of the most respected judges of horseflesh in the world, he also selected, owned, managed, and raced, numerous World Champions, like Nihilator, Camtastic, and Always B Miki. Not too long ago, he said SBSW was the greatest horse he had seen in modern times (going back to the 70's). He added that his lone defeat did not at all subtract from his greatness, but it defined it. Bob Marks said something very similar. Geoff Stein (who died in 2012 I think) said that while Niatross was a horse a generation ahead of his time, SBSW was truly the greatest horse since then. Dave Reid, David James, Jerry Glantz, and I'll throw in Murray Brown, although I always felt he was a putz, all aside from a situational bias, have said similar things. If it were going to not be published, and you asked John Campbell and Billy O'Donnell, objectively, they have said the same thing.

Yes, Niatross will come up, and without question he was truly a horse who was ahead of time. But after SBSW came along, in my opinion, he displaced any others from Niatross on. Put together a GOAT pacer list, and nobody would be shocked if his name appeared on it. You won't find Precious Bunny's name on it, or Presidential Ball, or Cams Card Shark. A GOAT list is not about line item accomplishments. It's not about accolades on a pedigree page. It's about true greatness doing what you did. A teletimer ain't gonna show you that.

[rainman2]

I see MIKE CAMPBELL hasn't been online in a few days!  It looks like he finally "LAID DOWN" after getting 'beaten down' over and over again by the posters here. Still awaiting his comeback though!

Now we can actually discuss for serious subjects here without the nasty vindictive comments, 'whining', and "crying"!

[Grandstand Handicapper]

For everyone who will be in Lexington, you can come out and watch all the horses train in the mornings. Karl will be there! I am sure he will be easily recognizable to people. 

[Grandstand Handicapper]

Like I said, I think I know where his stud fee lands if he runs the table.

Just curious.....if Karl unfortunately retired now.....what would his stud fee be?

He's skipping the Bluegrass, so let's say he unfortunately loses the KY Futurity and loses the BC.....what's his stud fee then?

[rainman2]

Like I said, I think I know where his stud fee lands if he runs the table.

Just curious.....if Karl unfortunately retired now.....what would his stud fee be?

He's skipping the Bluegrass, so let's say he unfortunately loses the KY Futurity and loses the BC.....what's his stud fee then?

Perhaps just as important, which farm would he be at?

[Swandre]

Like I said, I think I know where his stud fee lands if he runs the table.

Just curious.....if Karl unfortunately retired now.....what would his stud fee be?

He's skipping the Bluegrass, so let's say he unfortunately loses the KY Futurity and loses the BC.....what's his stud fee then?

$25-$30k

[Swandre]

Karl certinally is not building much of a resume for a stud career.  Has to be a soundness factor.  Cut his nuts out, give him a year off and see what happens.

He’s a double millionaire Breeders Crown and Hambletonian winner. 2 races Greenshoe never won who stands for $25k

his stud career is set in stone

[Casualfan1]

this is so ridiculous

Somebeachsomewher e is among the greatest of all time. So what he skipped the Jug

Totally agree and IMO one of the greatest stallions of all time so why would anyone bring up SBSW in this convo. We shall see but I highly doubt Karl comes anywhere close to the stud career Beach had. If only he were still here he may have been hands down greatest stallion of all time

[Lance]

Totally agree and IMO one of the greatest stallions of all time so why would anyone bring up SBSW in this convo. We shall see but I highly doubt Karl comes anywhere close to the stud career Beach had. If only he were still here he may have been hands down greatest stallion of all time

 You are correct, would have been one of the all time greats, probably still is.  I've been around a lot of great stallions but he's one of the best.

[Grandstand Handicapper]

He’s a double millionaire Breeders Crown and Hambletonian winner. 2 races Greenshoe never won who stands for $25k

his stud career is set in stone

Depends on how he wins the BC. He has to show breeders something. In today's market, breeders are going to tell you Karl is far from set in stone. He's not competition for Greenshoe in the breeding shed. He could be a strong, even dominant second tier trotting stallion at $15k. If he debuts at $25k or $30k, it would be a huge hurdle to overcome. Greenshoe was a completely different pedigree scenario and they are completely different horses. Greenshoe was a $330,000 yearling and had a stallion's pedigree from day one. Look at his family, what the rest of the family sold for, the mare crosses, and what the yearlings sold for. On top of that, if you don't see the difference in the types of horses they are, it's a complete neglect of what each colt showed talent, ability, athleticism, etc. Even without Greenshoe winning those races, he was going to be greatly received and respected as a stallion. Look at what his yearlings sold for.

[Grandstand Handicapper]

Perhaps just as important, which farm would he be at?

He won't have trouble finding a farm. Stats/accolades alone will find him a home.

[Grandstand Handicapper]

Totally agree and IMO one of the greatest stallions of all time so why would anyone bring up SBSW in this convo. We shall see but I highly doubt Karl comes anywhere close to the stud career Beach had. If only he were still here he may have been hands down greatest stallion of all time

Agreed. The two shouldn't be in any of the same conversation, horse or stallion career.