Karl

[bond]

"They are going to protect him as much as they can, promote him, give quiet discounts where they can, breed a lot of their own, make deals, ---and they are going to hope he has some success."

I think it's reasonable to expect that the owners of any valuable stud would do what the owners of Karl have done. Why is this seen as a negative? Karl had major problems as a 3yo but still won the Hambo, and I thought he was very game at the finish. He was 100% not right after that and should have been retired then because he showed he wasn't at his best and scoped sick twice. They did the same thing with Lazarus at his last start; he was sick the start before but they raced him shortly after-with disastrous result. Karl had a beautiful gait-great manners-conformation and a willingness to win and explosive acceleration--he will be a successful stallion IMHO.

[rainman2]

It's amazing that so many people criticize gingras for winning races on the front end but as soon as he wins a big one from the off the pace, it was a "lucky" win

Better “lucky” than good??  Let’s see how horseplop chimes in on this!!

[gh2009]

By saying it was a "lucky" win means more that he wasn't the best horse on that given, day but got the trip and won.

[Miguel_Sanchez]

I find it curious that Nancy, Jimmy and Christina sold all there % of the horse and didn't retain anything.  If he's so great why not keep some?

[Grandstand Handicapper]

It's amazing that so many people criticize gingras for winning races on the front end but as soon as he wins a big one from the off the pace, it was a "lucky" win

LOL. Yeah, that's the reason why it was lucky. Good one. LOL.

[Grandstand Handicapper]

"They are going to protect him as much as they can, promote him, give quiet discounts where they can, breed a lot of their own, make deals, ---and they are going to hope he has some success."

I think it's reasonable to expect that the owners of any valuable stud would do what the owners of Karl have done. Why is this seen as a negative? Karl had major problems as a 3yo but still won the Hambo, and I thought he was very game at the finish. He was 100% not right after that and should have been retired then because he showed he wasn't at his best and scoped sick twice. They did the same thing with Lazarus at his last start; he was sick the start before but they raced him shortly after-with disastrous result. Karl had a beautiful gait-great manners-conformation and a willingness to win and explosive acceleration--he will be a successful stallion IMHO.

Actually, if you have a quality stallion, at the right price, and you didn't overpay---then he doesn't need to be protected, you don't need to give out deals, etc. The stud fee at $20k tells you all you need to know. Setting it at 20 is not a negative. I said it would be an aggressive approach, but probably the best shot at succeeding. With a quality stallion---no deals, no discounts, no pooled shares or seasons, book legit full and closed, etc. Do you think the owners or the farm had to protect SBSW? LOL.

As far as game winning the Hambo, we will simply not just disagree, but agree that we are talking about bowling balls and the planet earth, LO. On the scoped sick twice, unless you are the vet, worked for the vet, or were there, I say this is nothing but innuendo and posturing. They were doing damage control after he trained well and raced poor. Bled, OK, he ended up on Lasix, but even that, is not 100%. We will see in year two how the economics play out.

[Grandstand Handicapper]

By saying it was a "lucky" win means more that he wasn't the best horse on that given, day but got the trip and won.

Agreed. As I said, he was not the best horse in that race that day. His trip, which was perfect, certainly contributed to the win, and if he didn't get that trip, he doesn't win. JMHO, and that with $5 gets you a fancy drink at Starbucks. LOL.

I will say this, I do buy stallion shares, when I see something I like, want, etc. I didn't call the farm to ask how much a share was for Karl.

[pocketrocketwinner]

Let me get this straight. The trip that the horse got was the lucky part. Gingras just absolutely can do not right to so many people. There was no shot that Yannick strategized and executed that trip, right? Why not say Karl won the race cause of a great trip? Why say he was lucky? My educated guess is cause gingras pisses a lot of people off for ancillary reasons.
There's a difference between winning with a bad trip sure but there's also a difference between losing with a great trip and winning with a great trip.

[Grandstand Handicapper]

This is an exercise in semantics. My thoughts and observations had zero to do with YG. I like him. I may not use him a lot, or feel he's a well-rounded, strategic driver, but I like him. I know him since before he came to the US. Nothing personal and nothing against him. Karl did win the race because of a great trip---the perfect trip, the best trip any horse in that race got---and because of that trip, and the rest of the field, Karl was "lucky" to have won that race. That's my take.

But more important, the check cleared and his name goes on the trophy! LOL. His place is history is secure. But people who know, know what they saw on the track, and that will go along with him into his stallion career.

[pocketrocketwinner]

Luck didn't have anything to do with that win. He won because the driver executed a great trip with a capable horse who wasnt 100% sharp but was game late in the mile. That isn't luck and that is my take.

[bond]

Luck didn't have anything to do with that win. He won because the driver executed a great trip with a capable horse who wasnt 100% sharp but was game late in the mile. That isn't luck and that is my take.

            Agree-everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 Karl won because he was the best horse-sure he got a great trip but the pace was fast early so Yannick decided to pull back like he had done before-Karl loved to run down his opposition and the fact is the last 50 yards he surged and no horse was going faster than Karl- he won going away--another 50 yards he wins by 2-3L. Yannick nearly fell out of the bike 100 meters from home trying to pull out the ear plugs--that cost him ground-then he straightened him up really asked him for the first time and whoosh-it was over.

[SDST2009]

            Agree-everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 Karl won because he was the best horse-sure he got a great trip but the pace was fast early so Yannick decided to pull back like he had done before-Karl loved to run down his opposition and the fact is the last 50 yards he surged and no horse was going faster than Karl- he won going away--another 50 yards he wins by 2-3L. Yannick nearly fell out of the bike 100 meters from home trying to pull out the ear plugs--that cost him ground-then he straightened him up really asked him for the first time and whoosh-it was over.

You're right that he was the best horse that day. And, he was the best horse a lot of days, and some of those days he prevailed, and some he didn't.

I truly thought he was going to be a superstar at 3 and he disappointed. I've not seen Karl do anything that required more than a decent trip and a lot of talent (and kudos to Gingras for putting him in that position as much as he could). He caught a lot of hype, and Diamond Creek is standing him in Kentucky, so he likely will fill a book.

TCI broke at the start of a million dollar race, spotted the field, and still won. I am not an enormous fan of that horse either, but that was a HUGE mile.

My opinion is there are numerous other trotting sires that are much better choices than Karl.

[The Answer]

To call TCI mile “HUGE” against a few nice fillies and very average colts is bit much. Sig Sauer had 15 lifetime starts never won anything other than NJSS as a two year old. Karl was the best two year old in the group and won multiple GC races. NONE of these raced ever on half mile track. There’s a reason why TCI is standing in OH and SS is standing for 8k in PA. Karl without a doubt will get a better book of mares than the other two combined. Whether he turns into a top sire nobody knows but he has the best chance and credentials of the three.

[Anakin]

To call TCI mile “HUGE” against a few nice fillies and very average colts is bit much. Sig Sauer had 15 lifetime starts never won anything other than NJSS as a two year old. Karl was the best two year old in the group and won multiple GC races. NONE of these raced ever on half mile track. There’s a reason why TCI is standing in OH and SS is standing for 8k in PA. Karl without a doubt will get a better book of mares than the other two combined. Whether he turns into a top sire nobody knows but he has the best chance and credentials of the three.

One thing you are overlooking is that of these three both Karl and Sig Sauer are both limited in the mares they can breed to because both are by Muscle Hill (Sig a son of Muscle Hill and Karl a grandson). And a lot of Chapter 7 and Walner mares have already been bred to Muscle Hill line stallions so the opportunities there will be limited as well.

On the other hand, TCI can be bred to any mare sired either by Muscle Hill or Chapter 7/Walner so he should be in demand just because of that.

[The Answer]

Totally agree but being in OH will hurt his chances of getting the TOP mares.