There are no words....

[White Rabbit]

You’re making him out to be a super horse, and when he need to be super he came up short. If he’s forced into that same trip again we will see if he gets up.
To be considered the greatest as you are stating he should have got up there.

[Fuguzzi]

Ok, so no horse can ever lose and be an all time great. I see. thanks for the education. Hmmm.  Nihilator lost to Armbro Dallas. Niatross lost twice, including the "fall". We know what happened to SBSW. Riyadh danced along with protection and still gave it up with triple Crown on the line to a relentless Life Sign in that 93 fantastic jug. We know the trials and tribulations of a young Artsplace. A brilliant Beach Towel who retried at the time as the richest pacer ever, lost to Jake and Elwood twice and almost couldn't beat him in the MP. see where I am going with this. The list is endless. Bret Hanover lost races too.........

All time greats do lose races

Horses are managed differently today, race less, extreme speed and on and on   The way top horses are raced today, 12 to 15 wins are like 25 to 30 from my day

But what do i know anyway.

[White Rabbit]

First off Niatross never lost heads up , made a break spotted the field 15 came back finished 4 to make the final and crushed in the final. Other loss he went over the hub rail.
All the other horse you mentioned didn’t dodge anyone.Why did CANNIBAL not go into the $80,000 KY SS and race against Confederate? I will save you the thought process, because he has the same owner and he just hammered Its My Show the week before. The same Its My Show Confederate couldn’t beat. Linda’s not dodging any with IMS. Can’t call him the greatest when they’re dodging horses.

[jupiter]

Wait till the end of the year and see. Sooner than later they will hook up again, My bet is on Pelling and TT. Let's see if IMS can beat Cannibal, the Jug should be interesting.

[Fuguzzi]

First off Niatross never lost heads up , made a break spotted the field 15 came back finished 4 to make the final and crushed in the final. Other loss he went over the hub rail.
All the other horse you mentioned didn’t dodge anyone.Why did CANNIBAL not go into the $80,000 KY SS and race against Confederate? I will save you the thought process, because he has the same owner and he just hammered Its My Show the week before. The same Its My Show Confederate couldn’t beat. Linda’s not dodging any with IMS. Can’t call him the greatest when they’re dodging horses.

Yes he broke and yes he fell. You forget something when he fell. I was there in person, by the way. It was a split card on my brothers Bday - July 5th and ,many of us had to wait to get into the paddock because he fell. Back to what i was saying, he was already being passed when he fell because Clint started caving his ribs, Before that Niatross had never been touched with a whip. He was also very sick with fever and supposedly his red blood cell count was off. Bottom line, he still lost.

Funny thing about this game, sometimes a horse can put down their best performance in DEFEAT. I think SBSW losing the M Pace was maybe his greatest race - that's just me.

And if you read carefully, I totally acknowledge that horses are managed waaaaay differently now. I despise the "dodging", overlapping ownerships and everything else about. I am old school and yes everyone raced everyone, everywhere. everytime.

A real jug would feature Confederate, Cannibal, It's My Show, Seven Colors, Redwood Hanover, etc.

[Fuguzzi]

Also if cannibal did race in the elim, no matter who beat who, he and Confederate would make the final 2 weeks later and then neither would be in the Jug just days later, right? It's business after all. This way one goes to each. I would send Cannibal to the Jug too. So would you!

[Fuguzzi]

BTW, on the subject of Niatross. The true measure of the greatness of that horse can be found in his ability to overcome his trainer/driver, his assistant trainer and his wife, the horses groom. A hillbilly crew. Then there was the greedy owners syndicate of Guida/Finder who did all they could to screw the old lady Elsie Berger out of her money. Not surprising, especially where Morty Finder is concerned - degenerate gambler.

[Generation XYZ]

You’re making him out to be a super horse, and when he need to be super he came up short. If he’s forced into that same trip again we will see if he gets up.
To be considered the greatest as you are stating he should have got up there.

Poetry In Motion

[JIDGE]

First off Niatross never lost heads up , made a break spotted the field 15 came back finished 4 to make the final and crushed in the final. Other loss he went over the hub rail.
All the other horse you mentioned didn’t dodge anyone.Why did CANNIBAL not go into the $80,000 KY SS and race against Confederate? I will save you the thought process, because he has the same owner and he just hammered Its My Show the week before. The same Its My Show Confederate couldn’t beat. Linda’s not dodging any with IMS. Can’t call him the greatest when they’re dodging horses.

They've kept CONFEDERATE and CANNIBAL apart the entire year with the exception of the Meadowlands Pace -- and we know what happened there -- Confederate ran off in 47 and Cannibal didn't pick up a check.
So I must be missing your point -- do you feel Cannibal is the better horse?  Yes, he beat IMS the week before, but the week before that IMS was an easy winner over Cannibal in 47.1  Also, I believe Cannibal went in the Commenwealth division and not the SS because he was shooting for a lifetime mark also. He won but unfortunately the lifetime mark didn't work out for him.

[SDST2009]

Here's my unsolicited two cents on the colt. He's FAST, especially in a single quarter situation. I think it's pretty clear he's the best 3yo pacer this year. Really a pleasure to watch race.
That said, I don't care about his race this week. It was a glorified time trial. He should win the final but no one will be out on a suicide mission to cut out fractions for him with that kind of $$ on the line, so may not better his record. I can only assume he is done after this year.

I find it hard to put him in the conversation of best ever right now. He may very well prove me wrong by the end of the year.

I have not stood next to the horse but he does not look big. Right, wrong or indifferent, people like a big strong yearling and I don't imagine he will throw one.  He will command in the stud barn initially, but I guess we will see how it goes if he puts out a bunch of tiny tots.

[JIDGE]

Here's my unsolicited two cents on the colt. He's FAST, especially in a single quarter situation. I think it's pretty clear he's the best 3yo pacer this year. Really a pleasure to watch race.
That said, I don't care about his race this week. It was a glorified time trial. He should win the final but no one will be out on a suicide mission to cut out fractions for him with that kind of $$ on the line, so may not better his record. I can only assume he is done after this year.

I find it hard to put him in the conversation of best ever right now. He may very well prove me wrong by the end of the year.

I have not stood next to the horse but he does not look big. Right, wrong or indifferent, people like a big strong yearling and I don't imagine he will throw one.  He will command in the stud barn initially, but I guess we will see how it goes if he puts out a bunch of tiny tots.

Albatross was not a big horse.

[Fuguzzi]

Here's my unsolicited two cents on the colt. He's FAST, especially in a single quarter situation. I think it's pretty clear he's the best 3yo pacer this year. Really a pleasure to watch race.
That said, I don't care about his race this week. It was a glorified time trial. He should win the final but no one will be out on a suicide mission to cut out fractions for him with that kind of $$ on the line, so may not better his record. I can only assume he is done after this year.

I find it hard to put him in the conversation of best ever right now. He may very well prove me wrong by the end of the year.

I have not stood next to the horse but he does not look big. Right, wrong or indifferent, people like a big strong yearling and I don't imagine he will throw one.  He will command in the stud barn initially, but I guess we will see how it goes if he puts out a bunch of tiny tots.

Some excellent points here  ty  I wouldn't call him big or small   but that's a matter of perspective.. He reminds me a great deal of Matt's Scooter, whose stall I've actually been in. I have touched Matt's Scooter under supervision of his groom. Amazing specimen. I've never seen a neck or airway on ahorse in my life, like I did on Matt's

Yes, time will eventually tell and some of the greatness I see in him is still in the future. It's a shame he will only race 2 more times   So fleeting.

[Kole Hanover]

Hey Calhoun - Very flattering words. I think I better call myself the Sensei! Just kidding. My wife said nice ego stroke.

I will answer your questions in depth soon. Gotta run some errands. Look for an update later this morning. Thanks again! Btw I am not the "KING", George Anthony, but knew him well. Solid citizen!

 
 Yes, if you have the time in the near future- please let us know more of your insightful thoughts about anything (harness related or other)

 We need to hear more from the ones who have been there & done that. 

 Only if time allows

[Parked]

Rewatch NA Cup final, Confederate, 3rd over with numbers being dictated by a horse trying to win , not set up speed for his stable mate, Comfedrate came up a nose short.

Remember SBSW ??    Where is Ron Pierce when we need him ??

[Stan durbread]

Bottom line is he couldn’t over come a 3 in trip to get up in the NA Cup

You must of missed the Meadowlands Pace. Last 1/8 it looks like the rest were tied to a post